, > <summary>, <link>, <content>, etc. > > * Property and entity elements are all fully qualified, either > in the core Atom namespace or an extension namespace. Examples > usually show elements in the Atom namespace using a default > namespace on the root entity element. > > * <content> and content-like elements (title, subtitle, and > summary) have an associated a MIME type, mode of encoding, > language, and either a value inline or through a URI > reference. A <content> element may have a relation that > indicates whether the content is an excerpt, preview, thumbnail, > or otherwise not the entire content. I thought it would be a good inaugural message to the list, to start with a general discussion as to the style or pattern to the schema rather than jumping straight to individual element-content models. As always, these are not cast in stone. There is still discussion in EscapedHtmlContent about what <content> may hold (is it limited to just *ML, or should *ML types be special-cased). There is discussion in ContentProblems regarding the distinction between whole and partial entities. ContentDiscussion appears to have a simple majority preferring only one <content>, but current examples are multiple-contents with an undefined model for selecting a representation. The utility of <content src='...'> appears to be in question, but if it is useful, is a MIME multipart wrapper not far behind (a la SOAP with Attachments)? Since the decision was made to specify model and syntax in one document (SyntaxConsiderations), I presume this list covers both? -- Ken From owner-atom-syntax Thu Jul 17 15:48:37 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HMmbqt032282 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HMmb8n032281 for atom-syntax-bks; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HMmZqt032274 for <atom-syntax@above.proper.com>; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from textuality.com (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373D21031B for <atom-syntax@above.proper.com>; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F1727C6.3080102@textuality.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:38 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@above.proper.com Subject: Testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> 1 2 3 -- Cheers, Tim Bray (ongoing fragmented essay: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) From owner-atom-syntax Fri Jul 18 13:53:52 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6IKrqqt021496 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6IKrqM3021494 for atom-syntax-bks; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6IKrpqt021488 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (198-143-226-158.dsl.btitelecom.net [198.143.226.158]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6IKvDO07834 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:57:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3F185F8A.3060208@bitworking.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:58:50 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Testing References: <200307161333.h6GDXb4b082599@above.proper.com> In-Reply-To: <200307161333.h6GDXb4b082599@above.proper.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Testing From owner-atom-syntax Fri Jul 18 18:44:47 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6J1ilqt035926 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6J1ilI1035925 for atom-syntax-bks; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6J1ikqt035920 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6J1m6D21311 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:48:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3F18A287.1000209@bitworking.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:44:39 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Testing. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 05:12:51 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JCCpqt087247 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JCCpYT087246 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JCCoqt087240 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.218) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A000931E1 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:12:50 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:08:16 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Hi folks, Great to see the list. One thing about the syntax that concerns me greatly is that there doesn't yet appear to be a consistent way of interpreting material from other namespaces. I believe this to be a make or break issue for interop. Such a mechanism is also lacking from RSS 2.0, which relies on extension modules to define how they are to be used. This approach is IMHO totally inadequate, the main reason be that it is likely to lead to inconsistency in the way external data has to be handled by an Atom processor. This will make coding harder. The issue was however thoroughly covered in RSS 1.0 thanks to RDF/XML. I doubt very much that the richness of the full RDF graph is needed inside Atom, but I think it will be desirable to be able to extend into or attach a full graph if required. In fact, another justification for a sound extension mechanism is to be able to interoperate with RSS 1.0 and other RDF data. It has been suggested that "ignore anything you don't recognise" might be a suitable mechanism, but I believe this has two major flaws : the parts that aren't recognised may alter the meaning of other parts of the feed (e.g. a Creative Commons license, or a element saying "this is all a joke"), so their total omission may have side effects; valuable data is being thrown away (compare the RDF approach). A start has been made on defining extension modules on the Wiki [1], but as yet there doesn't seem to be anything substantial. I believe that such a mechanism can be defined without any impact on the work that has been done so far. All I think that is needed in the core is a means of saying whether an included element from another namespace is additional content, *or* is additional information about its parent. I've put a strawman on the Wiki [2], in brief : 1. Any elements outside of the Atom namespace within a <metadata> element will be interpreted as being about the parent element. 2. Any other elements outside of the Atom namespace will be interpreted as secondary content associated with their parent element. The use of a <metadata> element has prior art in SVG [3], where it seems to work quite well. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ExtensionModule [2] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/SyntaxExtensionMechanism [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/metadata.html ---- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 06:05:09 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD59qt090497 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JD59kh090495 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [209.61.183.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD57qt090486 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from intertwingly.net (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.66]) (authenticated) by chromium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6JD5Bn11118 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:05:12 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:04:39 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Danny Ayers wrote: > > I believe that such a mechanism can be defined without any impact on the > work that has been done so far. All I think that is needed in the core is a > means of saying whether an included element from another namespace is > additional content, *or* is additional information about its parent. I've > put a strawman on the Wiki [2] WOW. Orthogonal Extensibility. Love it. Contrast: <Envelope> <Header>  </Header> <Body> <entry>  </entry> </Body> </Envelope> With: <entry>  <metadata>  </metadata> </entry> A few points: * metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date content or metadata? If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing this entry, is that additional content or additional information about the entry? * if we go down this path, it would be worth having something analagous to the 'mustUnderstand' attribute as defined in the SOAP specification. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 06:04:08 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD48qt090343 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JD4818090341 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law12-oe49.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.18.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD46qt090323 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney99@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:02 -0700 Received: from 66.92.145.79 by law12-oe49.law12.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:04:02 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.92.145.79] X-Originating-Email: [wkearney99@hotmail.com] Reply-To: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <3F18A287.1000209@bitworking.org> Subject: Re: Test Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:04:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <Law12-OE494lB4BwOZx0000d699@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 13:04:02.0586 (UTC) FILETIME=[39F077A0:01C34DF6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> 1... 2... 3... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Gregorio" <joe@bitworking.org> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: Test > > Testing. > > From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 06:34:49 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JDYnqt095870 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JDYnYN095869 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law12-oe64.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.18.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JDYlqt095837 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney99@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:38 -0700 Received: from 66.92.145.79 by oe64.adinternal.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:34:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.92.145.79] X-Originating-Email: [wkearney99@hotmail.com] Reply-To: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> To: "atom-syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Subject: prefixing mailing list messages? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:34:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 13:34:38.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[806F0CB0:01C34DFA] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Can we had the [atom-syntax] prefix prefixed in the subject line of messages from the mailing list? It makes sorting the out in the inbox a bit easier. And no, header lines don't really help. Thanks, -Bill Kearney From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:08:14 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JE8Eqt098215 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JE8EXp098214 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (mta2-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JE8Bqt098204 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@willow.frejol.org) Received: from willow.frejol.org ([80.1.28.119]) by mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20030719140810.RBP18309.mta2-svc.business.ntl.com@willow.frejol.org> for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:08:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3F1950C9.2040107@willow.frejol.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:08:09 +0100 From: Nick Boalch <nick@willow.frejol.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030701 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: prefixing mailing list messages? References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Bill Kearney wrote: > Can we had the [atom-syntax] prefix prefixed in the subject line of messages > from the mailing list? While we're doing issues with the list mechanics (atom-syntax-syntax? :) is there any chance of having Mail-Followup-To: set appropriately by the list software? Cheers, N. -- Nick Boalch <URL:http://nick.frejol.org/> From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:18:39 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIdqt098393 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JEIdCu098389 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law12-oe22.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.18.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIbqt098382 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney99@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:33 -0700 Received: from 66.92.145.79 by law12-oe22.law12.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:18:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.92.145.79] X-Originating-Email: [wkearney99@hotmail.com] Reply-To: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> <3F1950C9.2040107@willow.frejol.org> Subject: Re: prefixing mailing list messages? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:18:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <Law12-OE22dmXYJrOOO0000df4d@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 14:18:33.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[A31A9260:01C34E00] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is an OLD argument. Some folks strongly disagree with this idea. I greatly prefer reply-to being the list and support Nick's suggestion. It also avoids the insane reply-to-all hassles of the thread particpants getting two copies. Yes, mail client software can be used to work around it. But most MUAs do a bad job of this. -Bill Kearney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Boalch" <nick@willow.frejol.org> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Re: prefixing mailing list messages? > > Bill Kearney wrote: > > Can we had the [atom-syntax] prefix prefixed in the subject line of messages > > from the mailing list? > > While we're doing issues with the list mechanics (atom-syntax-syntax? :) > is there any chance of having Mail-Followup-To: set appropriately by the > list software? From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:18:40 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIeqt098396 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JEIeBL098395 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (mta2-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIcqt098387 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@willow.frejol.org) Received: from willow.frejol.org ([80.1.28.119]) by mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20030719141838.YNW18309.mta2-svc.business.ntl.com@willow.frejol.org> for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:18:38 +0100 Message-ID: <3F19533D.3050509@willow.frejol.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:18:37 +0100 From: Nick Boalch <nick@willow.frejol.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030701 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > content or metadata? To my mind, the issued date is definitely metadata -- particularly as our projected format supports various different kinds of date metadata about a given entry (created, issued, modified, &c, &c). > If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing > this entry, is that additional content or additional information about > the entry? This one's more ambiguous. I'd call it as additional content, I think, purely on the basis of safe generalisation. Sure, in many cases such information could arguably be considered metadata, but I reckon I can project a number of examples where 'mood' isn't a useful piece of additional information about an entry. Cheers, N. -- Nick Boalch <URL:http://nick.frejol.org/> From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:56:57 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEuvqt099094 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JEuvpB099093 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEuuqt099081 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.209.190) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00AD5B30; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:56:30 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Sam Ruby" <rubys@intertwingly.net>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:51:55 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPMEIODGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > Contrast: > > <Envelope> > <Header> >  > </Header> > <Body> > <entry> >  > </entry> > </Body> > </Envelope> > > With: > > <entry> >  > <metadata> >  > </metadata> > </entry> A very interesting comparison! > A few points: > > * metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > content or metadata? If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the > person while composing this entry, is that additional content or > additional information about the entry? That's true, the content/meta divide is quite artificial (the same applies with the head/body approach). My thinking behind interpreting the (kind of) default inclusion as content is that a newsreader could just display it without thinking, whereas the <metadata> wrapper would be a big hint that perhaps this shouldn't simply be rendered in the viewer directly. I could be wrong, but it feels like this approach may make life easier at either end, and doesn't interfere with the rest of the syntax. > * if we go down this path, it would be worth having something analagous > to the 'mustUnderstand' attribute as defined in the SOAP specification. That sounds a very promising way of dealing with extensions that might say things like "not for republication". Cheers, Danny. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:07:59 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF7xqt099260 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JF7xQH099259 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF7wqt099254 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from textuality.com (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3AF1032A; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F195ECD.3000102@textuality.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:57 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > Danny Ayers wrote: >> >> I believe that such a mechanism can be defined without any impact on the >> work that has been done so far. All I think that is needed in the core >> is a >> means of saying whether an included element from another namespace is >> additional content, *or* is additional information about its parent. It's worth exploring, but could be a rat-hole. The line between metadata and data is super-fuzzy. Also, unless we can figure out how to be really clear what the expected impact on client software is, it's not worth doing. Sam Ruby wrote: > * metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > content or metadata? If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the > person while composing this entry, is that additional content or > additional information about the entry? Yep. THere are going to be a million corner cases. > * if we go down this path, it would be worth having something analagous > to the 'mustUnderstand' attribute as defined in the SOAP specification. This seems like a good idea, it's been more or less proven to work in the SOAP context. As I've said before, we shouldn't be trying to invent whizzy new technology here, we should just be trying for a clean clear specification of what's been proven to work. -- Cheers, Tim Bray (ongoing fragmented essay: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:09:53 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF9qqt099316 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JF9q21099315 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF9kqt099309 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from textuality.com (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522351032A; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F195F3A.5020904@textuality.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:46 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: danny666@virgilio.it Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Danny Ayers wrote: > One thing about the syntax that concerns me greatly is that there doesn't > yet appear to be a consistent way of interpreting material from other > namespaces. I believe this to be a make or break issue for interop. This problem has never been solved in the general case that I know of. So I really hope that you're wrong on it's make-or-break-ness. Worth taking a whack at, but don't underestimate the difficulty. -- Cheers, Tim Bray (ongoing fragmented essay: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:40:18 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFeIqt000555 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JFeIme000554 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFeHqt000543 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.209.190) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A0009C854; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:40:12 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Tim Bray" <tbray@textuality.com> Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:35:36 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEJBDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F195F3A.5020904@textuality.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > > One thing about the syntax that concerns me greatly is that > there doesn't > > yet appear to be a consistent way of interpreting material from other > > namespaces. I believe this to be a make or break issue for interop. > > This problem has never been solved in the general case that I know of. > So I really hope that you're wrong on it's make-or-break-ness. Worth > taking a whack at, but don't underestimate the difficulty. (also >As I've said before, we shouldn't be trying to invent whizzy new >technology here, we should just be trying for a clean clear >specification of what's been proven to work.) I believe there is adequate (working!) prior art to point to something that will be appropriate for Atom. I reckon the techniques have been proven, it's just a matter of finding the sweet spot. RDF/XML guarantees we know *something* about material from other namespaces through conformity to the RDF model. It's already been decided that the uber-model approach of using a complete abstract language from which the syntax is derived (as in RDF) isn't desirable, yet RSS 1.0 shows that this approach is possible in the context of syndication. At the other extreme, Sam and others have experimented with directly inserting namespace-qualified xhtml into RSS feeds with the intention that it's there for "display as content". This worked. (Though I can't remember offhand how conflict with other content was handled). Element-wrapping of metadata to hide it is a technique proven in SVG. So I think a braindead simple "this is metadata"/"this is content" data model (expressed in the syntax) for extension material could work. My suggestion for the syntax almost certainly isn't ideal, but it's maybe a start. Cheers, Danny. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:42:34 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFgYqt000848 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JFgYdN000847 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFgWqt000832 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFjdlg023422 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:45:39 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JFjcYV023418; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:45:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 19 Jul 2003 10:45:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m3adbaa5b1.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> I think making a distinction, outside of <content>, between what might be "metadata" and what might be "data" is a mistake. Virtually everything we're specifying already *is* metadata about a resource. From Danny's description of a <metadata> element for a feed or an entry, that means we have metadata for our metadata. I think the confusion comes from not knowing whether <entry> is the resource itself vs. <entry> being metadata about another resource (some entity logically or physically in <content>). While it is true that RDF is very clear about this (for any given subject URI, all its properties describe only that subject), RSS 1.0 actually has the same confusion we're talking about here. RSS 1.0 says the subject (rdf:about) of an item "is a URI which identifies the item", but it doesn't make clear whether "the item" is another resource or whether the <rss:item> RDF description itself can be the item. Most common usage is the former, but the latter is often used or proposed for things like tickers, playlists, or other ordered items where the items themselves are the subjects -- many of the same things proposed for Atom. I believe the answer to the question of "is this metadata about a resource or is this entry the resource" is centered around <content>. If content is a complete entity (embedded or by reference), this entry is metadata about the entity resource. If content is not present, empty, or is an entity fragment (the body of a log entry or comment, for example), the entry itself is the resource (content is the body value). In _either_ case, direct children of <entry> describe _the resource_ (as just defined). -- Ken P.S. +1 on a mustUnderstand facility. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 09:07:46 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG7jqt002329 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JG7jpG002328 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG7iqt002321 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JGAplg023559 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:10:51 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JGApHr023555; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:10:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 19 Jul 2003 11:10:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m365lya451.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Here are some other facets I see surrounding extension mechanisms, with my preferences stated below: "Wrapping" or "boxing" extensions Extension modules define a wrapper element, properties of the extension appear as children of the extension. Entities and Properties Certain elements are identified as "entities" (as in "entity-relationship model" for RDBs or as classes in OO or RDF). Direct child elements of those entities are either properties or other entities. Entities and properties are fully qualified, either in the core Atom namespace or an extension namespace. Display unknown entities/properties by default Don't display unknown entities/properties by default This relates to how one "ignores what they don't understand." In HTML <body>, unknown elements are treated as if the element tags didn't exist -- their content is displayed by default. My preference is for "Entities and Properties" and "Don't display unknown entities/properties by default." The latter is somewhat in perspective of the former: if these are like columns in a table (where everybody can add their own columns), it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily display every column value. Instead, display well-known columns, columns the user asks for, and columns where another extension column flags that they should be displayed (ie. by providing a stylesheet). -- Ken From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 09:08:23 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG8Mqt002339 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JG8M5B002338 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ehost004.intermedia.net (ehost004.intermedia.net [206.40.48.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG8Lqt002333 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.madia@workstate.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:22 -0700 Message-ID: <FF1837A1813CF54F8A3579D3F46EB40F038B29EA@ehost004.intermedia.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Extension mechanism Thread-Index: AcNOD+KaeUmsx45OR0mS08hkGCH1Jg== From: "Joe Madia" <joe.madia@workstate.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h6JG8Mqt002334 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> A big +1 on attempting to work out some sort of mustUnderstand rule for Atom extensions. On the flip side, I completely agree with Tim's hesitance/pragmatism regarding this issue. My biggest concern: The mustUnderstand header is used successfully in 'some other access protocols' because a rigid processing model is also defined. Atom does not currently (and probably should not) have a predefined processing model and this may limit the ability to add some type of mustUnderstand construct. In spite of the potential problems, I think we should try to work something out... if it becomes a rat hole then we'll just abandon it and move on. Joe From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 11:07:28 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JI7Sqt007047 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JI7SKq007046 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JI7Rqt007041 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JIAalg024147 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:10:36 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JIAZ18024143; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:10:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPAEJDDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 19 Jul 2003 13:10:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPAEJDDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m3znja8k10.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> writes: > I was thinking the <metadata> element could go anywhere, so it might > not be about an entry or the feed - the other obvious example being > for it to apply to the <author> of a feed (e.g. some FOAF). > But I'm not sure this is an issue that affects the <metadata> > element if you can put it where you like : > > <link>/weblog/archive/45.html<metadata>...</metadata></link> > > <content> > ...blah... > <metadata>...</metadata> > </content> > > (the link one is a bit ugly-looking, hmm...) <link> and <content> are literal values. Additional markup can only be embedded within them according to their content models. <link> would be #PCDATA and I don't think anyone wants to complicate that by saying element markup can go in there. <content> is based on its media type, but would still logically either be #PCDATA or a content model defined by some other specification (or an Atom content module, as in ComponentBlog). Other elements, like <author>, may themselves be "entity" elements and allow extended properties directly as children. > [...] it doesn't really answer how one might inline content from > another (unknown, arbitrary) namespace - let's say we wanted some > text plus a bit of SVG. If the rule was such content had to go in a > content element of its own, I guess that would work. This was the problem I saw with xhtml:body in RSS that we've solved far more neatly with atom:content. The problem was that xhtml:body is more a "type" than a property name; atom:content is a property name. As far as inlining content from another namespace, the same pattern applies: give it a property name -- the content model is constrained by the schema that defines the property name (readers should expect arbitrary XML for unknown properties). > btw, I personally don't really care too much how this is done, but I > think not sorting it out now would in effect be leaving the broadest > set of use cases (those involving extensions - topics, reviews, > threads, foaf etc etc) without a hook on which to hang their > data. I agree. I described a syntax pattern in Syntax[1] that I believe snapshots a common view of the Atom pattern, but there's not consensus on every part, which I wrote here[2] before the mail list was working right. I think it's very important that we define a general pattern for schema syntaxes so property or extension models are consistent and easier to develop without having to always rethink basic practices. -- Ken [1] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Syntax [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00000.html From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 11:39:34 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JIdYqt007874 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JIdYjC007873 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JIdXqt007840 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.210.43) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00ADCF6F; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:39:21 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Ken MacLeod" <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:34:45 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEJGDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <m3znja8k10.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Heh, I must apologise - I only scanned your previous mail, its significance in the context of an extension mechanism flew right past me. > I described a syntax pattern in Syntax[1] that I believe snapshots a > common view of the Atom pattern, but there's not consensus on every > part, which I wrote here[2] before the mail list was working right. > > I think it's very important that we define a general pattern for > schema syntaxes so property or extension models are consistent and > easier to develop without having to always rethink basic practices. Agreed. The "Entity" elements you describe sound mightily like web resources - will these entities each have a URI? Similarly, the property elements correspond well to the parts of RDF with the same name - this could be a big plus for interop. Cheers, Danny. > -- Ken > > [1] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Syntax > [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00000.html From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 13:51:28 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JKpSqt014327 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JKpSwC014325 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from gkhs.net (exim@spark.gkhs.net [81.6.252.146]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JKpRqt014320 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aq+lists@gkhs.net) Received: from maelstrom.water.gkhs.net ([10.1.0.3]) by gkhs.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 19dyfw-0001e0-00 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:51:28 +0100 From: Aquarion <aq+lists@gkhs.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:51:40 +0100 Message-ID: <ebbjhvghjgsspbmodfee0u6ojs3g7h4r9j@4ax.com> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> <3F19533D.3050509@willow.frejol.org> In-Reply-To: <3F19533D.3050509@willow.frejol.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h6JKpSqt014321 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:18:37 +0100, in gkhs.weblogs.atom-syntax you wrote: > >Sam Ruby wrote: > >> metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date >> content or metadata? > >To my mind, the issued date is definitely metadata -- particularly as >our projected format supports various different kinds of date metadata >about a given entry (created, issued, modified, &c, &c). > >> If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing >> this entry, is that additional content or additional information about >> the entry? > >This one's more ambiguous. I'd call it as additional content, I think, >purely on the basis of safe generalisation. Sure, in many cases such >information could arguably be considered metadata, but I reckon I can >project a number of examples where 'mood' isn't a useful piece of >additional information about an entry. So how about if there were two container classes, <content> and <metadata> with same spec, to give the client a hint as to if it should be contained or just referenced to. For example: <atomExample> <content> <item type="text/plain" lang="en">Hello World!</item> <item type="image/gif" src="http://www.aquarionics.com/assets/hello.gif">Hello World image</item> </content> <metadata> <item type="audio/mp3" src="http://www.aquarionics.com/assets/hello.mp3">Aquarion reading "Hello World"</item> <dc:subject>Greetings</dc:subject> <link rel="crossreference" href="http://www2.latech.edu/~acm/HelloWorld.shtml">Hello World in different languages</link> </metadata> </atomExample> This leaves the decision of MetaData up to - primarily - the feed producer and - secondarily - the user agent. -- Aquarion http://www.aquarionics.com From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 15:06:37 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JM6bqt019795 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JM6bHN019794 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.xaraya.com (xaraya.com [207.44.194.106]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JM6Zqt019787 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from niceguyeddie@xaraya.com) Received: by mail.xaraya.com (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 892F93E00EA; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:16:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from MCNABB (md-wmnsmd-cuda1-c8a-a-99.chvlva.adelphia.net [68.65.108.99]) by mail.xaraya.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E068B3E00E8 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:16:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <034d01c34e42$2367a930$1202a8c0@MCNABB> From: "J. Cox" <niceguyeddie@xaraya.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: NNTP Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:07:25 -0400 Organization: Xaraya X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Xaraya's Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Hi, Just wondering if there is an NNTP version of this list? If not, I can probably help with some resources, as I am interested in following the development. Thanks! J. Cox http://www.xaraya.com From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 18:43:29 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K1hTqt057719 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6K1hSvk057717 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:43:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vesta.ectoplasm.org (vesta.ectoplasm.org [64.49.222.108]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K1hRqt057673 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [218.5.1.141] (unknown [218.5.1.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by vesta.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA50A5057 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:42:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: test From: Zhang Yining <yining@ectoplasm.org> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 20 Jul 2003 09:36:32 +0800 Message-Id: <1058665018.6041.24.camel@yining> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> how come the emails didn't catch up? From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 20:36:37 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K3abqt076907 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6K3ab84076906 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:36:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K3aaqt076901 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6K3eDo24570 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:40:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:36:33 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Here are my comments on the 2003/07/01 snapshot: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2003/07/01/example.necho 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. 2) entry.content - I think there should be only one, and it should be required, and it may be empty. 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace with a single element called entry.author.id. Do the same for entry.contributor. Lastly, a clarification, if an element is noted as being required, can it still be zero length? I ask because entry.title is required and has a note that it may be zero length, making me doubt that the other required elements may be zero length. Thanks, -joe -- http://BitWorking.org http://WellFormedWeb.org From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 05:30:18 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KCUIqt029025 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KCUIXo029023 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:30:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fuzzygroup.net ([65.61.162.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with SMTP id h6KCUGqt029017 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@feedster.com) Received: (qmail 17507 invoked by uid 82); 20 Jul 2003 07:29:31 -0500 Received: from h002078d4bbaa.ne.client2.attbi.com (HELO advalgo.com) (scott@feedster.com@24.60.137.182) by 65.61.162.22 (qmail 1.03 + ejcp) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2003 07:29:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback From: "J. Scott Johnson" <scott@feedster.com> Reply-To: scott@feedster.com To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Feedster, Inc. Message-Id: <1058704104.7865.133.camel@devserver01.internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Date: 20 Jul 2003 08:28:24 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Amen! subtitle needs to be optional. IMHO author needs to be optional. If you have any cases of metasyndication like Feedster, you don't have an author at all generally. And if its required then at least allow 0 length. Scott On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 23:36, Joe Gregorio wrote: > Here are my comments on the 2003/07/01 snapshot: > http://intertwingly.net/stories/2003/07/01/example.necho > > 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. > > 2) entry.content - I think there should be only one, > and it should be required, and it may be empty. > > 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace > with a single element called entry.author.id. > Do the same for entry.contributor. > > Lastly, a clarification, if an element is noted as being > required, can it still be zero length? I ask because > entry.title is required and has a note that it may be zero > length, making me doubt that the other required elements may > be zero length. > > Thanks, > -joe -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * J. Scott Johnson, Co-Founder Feedster, LLC Making RSS & Weblogs Searchable web: http://www.feedster.com/ mail: scott@feedster.com im: AIM, Y!: fuzzygroup MSN: fuzzygroup@hotmail.com Jabber: fuzzygroup@jabber.com ICQ: 275649261 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:01:01 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD11qt032924 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KD11h2032923 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD0xqt032762 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.98) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00AEF0ED; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:00:45 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: <scott@feedster.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:56:08 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEKJDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1058704104.7865.133.camel@devserver01.internal> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > subtitle needs to be optional. +1 > IMHO author needs to be optional. If you have any cases of > metasyndication like Feedster, you don't have an author at all > generally. And if its required then at least allow 0 length. If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', then the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. Having said that, I'm not so sure <author> needs to be a mandatory element. There are other machine sources (like the Gump feed [1]) where the URI of the feed performs a similar role, and probably is all you ever need to know. Whether or not this also should be made explicit alongside the feed contents, so it is preserved in republication...I'm really not sure. What is needed is a way of ensuring that attribution to the original source can *somehow* be maintained as well as possible. I think it would also be desirable to make it easy to include/obtain the chain of republishers (machine or human) that an entry had followed from the source to the current presentation, whatever that may be. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/index.rss From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:02:49 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD2nqt033205 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KD2nlS033204 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fuzzygroup.net ([65.61.162.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with SMTP id h6KD2lqt033195 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@feedster.com) Received: (qmail 18515 invoked by uid 82); 20 Jul 2003 08:02:01 -0500 Received: from h002078d4bbaa.ne.client2.attbi.com (HELO advalgo.com) (scott@feedster.com@24.60.137.182) by 65.61.162.22 (qmail 1.03 + ejcp) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2003 08:02:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback From: "J. Scott Johnson" <scott@feedster.com> Reply-To: scott@feedster.com To: danny666@virgilio.it Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEKJDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEKJDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Feedster, Inc. Message-Id: <1058706054.7865.169.camel@devserver01.internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Date: 20 Jul 2003 09:00:55 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Re: If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', then the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. If you have the metasyndication tool being the author then the metasyndication tool gets credit for other people's posts. That feels wrong. Scott On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 08:56, Danny Ayers wrote: > > subtitle needs to be optional. > > +1 > > > IMHO author needs to be optional. If you have any cases of > > metasyndication like Feedster, you don't have an author at all > > generally. And if its required then at least allow 0 length. > > If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', then > the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. > > Having said that, I'm not so sure <author> needs to be a mandatory element. > There are other machine sources (like the Gump feed [1]) where the URI of > the feed performs a similar role, and probably is all you ever need to know. > Whether or not this also should be made explicit alongside the feed > contents, so it is preserved in republication...I'm really not sure. > > What is needed is a way of ensuring that attribution to the original source > can *somehow* be maintained as well as possible. I think it would also be > desirable to make it easy to include/obtain the chain of republishers > (machine or human) that an entry had followed from the source to the current > presentation, whatever that may be. > > Cheers, > Danny. > > [1] http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/index.rss -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * J. Scott Johnson, Co-Founder Feedster, LLC Making RSS & Weblogs Searchable web: http://www.feedster.com/ mail: scott@feedster.com im: AIM, Y!: fuzzygroup MSN: fuzzygroup@hotmail.com Jabber: fuzzygroup@jabber.com ICQ: 275649261 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:07:40 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD7eqt034076 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KD7ej2034074 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:07:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD7dqt034048 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.98) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A000C379C; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:07:31 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: <scott@feedster.com> Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:02:54 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPAEKKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1058706054.7865.169.camel@devserver01.internal> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', > then the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. > > If you have the metasyndication tool being the author then the > metasyndication tool gets credit for other people's posts. That feels > wrong. Good point, that's certainly not desirable at the <entry> level. Do we have anything corresponding to creator of the feed yet? From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:33:19 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDXJqt037420 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KDXIa1037419 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [209.61.183.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDXHqt037413 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from intertwingly.net (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.66]) (authenticated) by chromium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KDXNA16048 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:33:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:32:57 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Joe Gregorio wrote: > > Here are my comments on the 2003/07/01 snapshot: > http://intertwingly.net/stories/2003/07/01/example.necho > > 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. In rss 2.0, rss.channel.description is required. Looking at typical usages ("theories of software development", "it's just data"), this appears to be best categorized as a subtitle. > 2) entry.content - I think there should be only one, > and it should be required, and it may be empty. I'd like to wait until the API is flushed out before shutting out this possibility. In particular, it would be nice to see what the consensus is for handling multipart (e.g., text + pictures) entries turns out to be. As for "may be empty", consider that there are multiple types of feeds. Some are summary only. Some provide the full content. Some provide both. > 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace > with a single element called entry.author.id. > Do the same for entry.contributor. If you had said entry.author.link, I would have agreed. Why "id"? > Lastly, a clarification, if an element is noted as being > required, can it still be zero length? I ask because > entry.title is required and has a note that it may be zero > length, making me doubt that the other required elements may > be zero length. Title being explicitly zero length was intended to promote the idea of a marker entry which indicated essentially "this space intentionally left blank". I expected pushback in the other direction, but perhaps it is better to have marker elements everywhere. > Thanks, > -joe > From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:53:38 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDrcqt038727 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KDrbID038726 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDraqt038720 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KDvFL31615 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:57:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1A9E8C.6060508@bitworking.org> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:52:12 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> In-Reply-To: <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > Joe Gregorio wrote: > >> 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace >> with a single element called entry.author.id. >> Do the same for entry.contributor. > > > I would have been with you had you said entry.author.link. Why are > you suggesting an id? entry.author.link is fine, I am not tied to a particular name, I just believe there should be a single URI that identifies the author. One downfall of .weblog and .homepage is that it seems to imply that the author is a person, when in fact the author could be an organization or an automated tool. -joe From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 07:09:09 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KE99qt039100 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KE99Tb039091 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KE94qt039055 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KECiL32304 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:12:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1AA22C.10709@bitworking.org> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:07:40 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback (multiple content elements) References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> In-Reply-To: <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > As far as only one content element per entry goes, I've seen this > brought up a number of times. One thing I would like to see before > this is settled is some more experience with usage as an API. In > particular, I'm interested in multipart blog entries (text plus > pictures). If no compelling need emerges from this, I would agree > that having at most one (or perhaps exactly one) would be simpler. Agreed, more experience with an API would be preferred before changing this. -joe From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 07:47:40 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KEleqt040397 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KEleDS040396 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KEldqt040391 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KEp5lg005004 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6KEp5iA005000; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> <3F1A9E8C.6060508@bitworking.org> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 20 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: <3F1A9E8C.6060508@bitworking.org> Message-ID: <m3r84l8d5y.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> writes: > Sam Ruby wrote: > > > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > >> 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace > >> with a single element called entry.author.id. > >> Do the same for entry.contributor. > > > > I would have been with you had you said entry.author.link. Why > > are you suggesting an id? > > entry.author.link is fine, I am not tied to a particular name, I > just believe there should be a single URI that identifies the > author. For interoperability with RDF, it would be great if any element considered an "entity" have an optional <id> that was the unique URI for that entity. The author case actually ends up being an exception! The RDF folks (and mostly driven by the FOAF folks in particular, who work with this every day) have come to the general conclusion that no one really can come up with a workable URI scheme for "people". Therefore, they recommend foaf:Person *not* have a subject URI and queries be made on otherwise unique properties, such as 'mbox' and, for the spam-blocking challenged, 'mbox_sha1sum' (the latter being just a one-way hash of 'mbox' to prevent email address harvesting). > One downfall of .weblog and .homepage is that it seems to imply that > the author is a person, when in fact the author could be an > organization or an automated tool. Organizations and systems can have weblogs and homepages, too. Occasionally, "weblog" isn't accurate as there is no person specifically selecting the entries to display, but it's still an ordered collection of resources presented day-to-day. Following in the footsteps of the FOAF folks though, none of weblog, homepage, email address, or other property be considered a canonical "id" of that person, organization, or system. You can't just "pick one" and have it make sense as an id in the conceptual model of an author. -- Ken From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 09:41:20 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KGfKqt045491 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KGfKaN045489 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KGfJqt045471 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeffreywinter@comcast.net) Received: from winter (h00c04fa0fd63.ne.client2.attbi.com[65.96.172.188](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200307201641150120057sl7e>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:41:15 +0000 Message-ID: <002c01c34edd$3fc48ad0$6401a8c0@winter> From: "Jeffrey Winter" <jeffreywinter@comcast.net> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:37:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; referenced as shown here: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample ; or is this still open for debate? Thanks, - Jeff From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 12:05:34 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJ5Yqt059899 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KJ5Y14059898 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJ5Sqt059880 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.42) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00AFB1BC; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:05:13 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Jeffrey Winter" <jeffreywinter@comcast.net>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:00:37 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002c01c34edd$3fc48ad0$6401a8c0@winter> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; > referenced as shown here: > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample > > ; or is this still open for debate? I hope it's still open for debate, especially in respect of nested comments if that is expected to go beyond a simple entry-->comments relationship. The structure of comments is just a single aspect of the larger issue of message threading, which IMHO goes way beyond the scope of Atom. Myself and others have looked into this in the context of ThreadsML [1]. If nesting is used for the expression of thread structure, then it is hobbled from the word go - how for example do you represent a comment that summarizes two separate threads? Personally I think it would be better to keep threading (beyond 1:n, entry:comments) away from the core of Atom, though I imagine that it will be one of the early extensions. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsML From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 12:36:13 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJaDqt061269 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KJaDxo061268 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJaBqt061263 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:36:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from solitude@vkps.co.uk) Received: from modem-1424.baboon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.21.144] helo=vkps.co.uk) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19eJyb-0003HY-DS; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:36:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:36:11 +0100 From: Gary F <solitude@vkps.co.uk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030616 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > > Joe Gregorio wrote: > >> >> 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. > > > In rss 2.0, rss.channel.description is required. Looking at typical > usages ("theories of software development", "it's just data"), this > appears to be best categorized as a subtitle. > Does anyone read the wiki? We reached consensus on the example page that subtitle should be pulled since we already had summary which does exactly what description does. We agreed to keep one or the other, but not both. Subtitle lost. To catch up, read http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/SubTitle . It has been linked to from the EchoExample page (where the argument originally occurred) for weeks now. From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 13:01:25 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KK1Pqt061665 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KK1PNs061664 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KK1Oqt061659 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jjulian2@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h6KK1QqS013512 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CompaqLaptop (adsl-66-143-44-20.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net [66.143.44.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h6KK1N9d017227 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200307202001.h6KK1N9d017227@mac.com> From: "Jeff Julian" <jjulian2@mac.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:01:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5329 In-reply-to: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Thread-Index: AcNO8j0PSFr+OmvFTg+0qbLyTpMItAABr7BQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> I personally like the idea of nested comments. I think Atom feeds should be easily transformable into the actual blog site itself. My blogging tool, geekswithblogs.com uses the RSS feed with additional nodes, like comments and link categories to build the output site with simple XSLT transforms. http://jjulian.geekswithblogs.com/BlogFeed.aspx is the feed I use to build the site. I would love to see Atom have a similar format. Jeff Julian -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Danny Ayers Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 2:01 PM To: Jeffrey Winter; atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback > Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; > referenced as shown here: > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample > > ; or is this still open for debate? I hope it's still open for debate, especially in respect of nested comments if that is expected to go beyond a simple entry-->comments relationship. The structure of comments is just a single aspect of the larger issue of message threading, which IMHO goes way beyond the scope of Atom. Myself and others have looked into this in the context of ThreadsML [1]. If nesting is used for the expression of thread structure, then it is hobbled from the word go - how for example do you represent a comment that summarizes two separate threads? Personally I think it would be better to keep threading (beyond 1:n, entry:comments) away from the core of Atom, though I imagine that it will be one of the early extensions. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsML From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 13:13:29 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KKDTqt062568 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KKDS7K062567 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [209.61.183.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KKDPqt062558 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from intertwingly.net (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.66]) (authenticated) by chromium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KKDVq05001; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:13:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1AF7CC.9020304@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:13:00 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary F <solitude@vkps.co.uk> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Gary F wrote: > > Does anyone read the wiki? We reached consensus on the example page that > subtitle should be pulled since we already had summary which does > exactly what description does. We agreed to keep one or the other, but > not both. Subtitle lost. To catch up, read > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/SubTitle . > > It has been linked to from the EchoExample page (where the argument > originally occurred) for weeks now. I, for one, would like to see a change log from the 0.1 snapshot. I'm quite willing to produce one, or it could be produced collaboratively. Here's my thoughts on the current example: Feed summary works for me. (I'd prefer subtitle, but ...) Feed modified appears to be gone. At the moment, it appears that author is outside of the entry, which would be problematic for my comment feeds. Contributor is missing. This is supposed to be a 'maximal' feed? A <url> element inside of <author> seems to have replaced <homepage> and <weblog>. <link> would seem to me to be more consistent. Entry id is now an attribute. I'd still prefer a URI. Subtitle is gone from entry. I'm OK with that. Issued is UTC. Sigh. There seems to be a summary inside the entry and inside the first content. Seems redundant. From an xml point of view, mode=escaped and mode=cdata seems redundant. The body in the html example is in the wrong namespace? - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 14:26:44 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLQiqt069835 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KLQiUc069834 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLQgqt069828 for <atom-syntax@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@sonosphere.com) Received: from h-69-3-26-2.snvacaid.covad.net ([69.3.26.2] helo=sonosphere.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19eLhc-0002tA-00 for atom-syntax@above.proper.com; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: snapshot feedback From: Doug Wyatt <doug@sonosphere.com> To: atom-syntax@above.proper.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <DBAD9BF4-BAF8-11D7-A7C7-000393A34B5A@sonosphere.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> I hacked together a prototype feed in my custom system: http://www.sonosphere.com/atom.xml I think I was copying from Mark Pilgrim's example as well as the 1.0 snapshot. To elaborate on the unresolved issues I list in a comment at the top of the feed: - <description> makes a lot more sense than <subtitle>. Something for the user to see in an aggregator when trying to decide whether to browse a new feed. - should there be <language> at the feed level? (and more than 1 of them for multilingual feeds?) The RSS 2.0 spec explains that this may be useful for aggregators, to allow the user to search for feeds only in a certain language - having a feed-level <author> seems like a step towards solving both the problem of aggregator-as-author and redundant (and a bit verbose) per-entry <author>s in a single-author feed. - having a feed-level <copyright> seems desirable - (dates, subjects - just notes to myself to do this) The biggest implementation issue, from my POV, is how to treat URL's in HTML embedded in <content>. In my prototype, all the local URL's are absolute paths from the top of my site -- which is not the same as the <feed>/<link>. XIST (the toolkit I'm using) may actually make it relatively painless to transform them into absolute URL's, but it seems simpler all around to have a base URL on the feed -- HTML renderers must have a concept of a base URL, so why not save the generator the trouble of not being able to put one in the feed? Doug From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 14:36:49 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLanqt070188 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KLam1b070185 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLakqt070180 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLeJlg007219 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:40:19 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6KLeJt2007215; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:40:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 20 Jul 2003 16:40:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m3n0f898sc.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 68 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> writes: > > Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; > > referenced as shown here: > > > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample > The structure of comments is just a single aspect of the larger > issue of message threading, which IMHO goes way beyond the scope of > Atom. Myself and others have looked into this in the context of > ThreadsML [1]. If nesting is used for the expression of thread > structure, then it is hobbled from the word go - how for example do > you represent a comment that summarizes two separate threads? I've been working on a sample RESTful server[2] and am in the process of adding comment support to it, to show POST and GET-queries. One current practice using RSS is to use an RSS channel per weblog item to hold a comment feed. That could use a threading model but I'm not convinced a "feed" is the right way to model comments. An alternative, that I'm sketching out in the sample server, is modeled as a query "what are all the references you have to this URI?", where URI can be the entry, or it can be the weblog, a story, audio, photos, or other resources at the site. References could include other entries, comments, trackbacks, referrers, known directory listings, etc. A similar query returning the same type of results could also be sent to a search site like Technorati or a third-party annotation server, and a reader would then have a union of all the references. The result set would use a highly constrained (minimal data) profile of Atom entities and allow entities from third parties (in their own namespaces): <references xmlns="http://example.com/atom/ns#" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" xmlns:daypop="http://www.daypop.com/ns#" xmlns:threads="http://purl.org/threads"> <comment> <link>http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/comments/restful-1.atom</link> <title>RESTful comment

From owner-atom-syntax Thu Jul 17 12:38:27 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HJcRqt020120 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HJcRRI020119 for atom-syntax-bks; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HJcQqt020113 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HJetlg007993 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:40:55 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6HJesBi007989; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:40:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Syntax pattern From: Ken MacLeod Date: 17 Jul 2003 14:40:54 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I added the following to the Introduction in the Syntax document, under "Schema Patterns": > The syntax follows certain repeating patterns: > > * "Entity" elements form the "top-level" elements, which can > sometimes be contained in other entity elements. Examples of > Atom entities would be , , , , and > (complete set to be determined). > > * "Property" elements are direct children of their entity > elements. Examples of property elements would be , > <summary>, <link>, <content>, etc. > > * Property and entity elements are all fully qualified, either > in the core Atom namespace or an extension namespace. Examples > usually show elements in the Atom namespace using a default > namespace on the root entity element. > > * <content> and content-like elements (title, subtitle, and > summary) have an associated a MIME type, mode of encoding, > language, and either a value inline or through a URI > reference. A <content> element may have a relation that > indicates whether the content is an excerpt, preview, thumbnail, > or otherwise not the entire content. I thought it would be a good inaugural message to the list, to start with a general discussion as to the style or pattern to the schema rather than jumping straight to individual element-content models. As always, these are not cast in stone. There is still discussion in EscapedHtmlContent about what <content> may hold (is it limited to just *ML, or should *ML types be special-cased). There is discussion in ContentProblems regarding the distinction between whole and partial entities. ContentDiscussion appears to have a simple majority preferring only one <content>, but current examples are multiple-contents with an undefined model for selecting a representation. The utility of <content src='...'> appears to be in question, but if it is useful, is a MIME multipart wrapper not far behind (a la SOAP with Attachments)? Since the decision was made to specify model and syntax in one document (SyntaxConsiderations), I presume this list covers both? -- Ken From owner-atom-syntax Thu Jul 17 15:48:37 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HMmbqt032282 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HMmb8n032281 for atom-syntax-bks; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HMmZqt032274 for <atom-syntax@above.proper.com>; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from textuality.com (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373D21031B for <atom-syntax@above.proper.com>; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F1727C6.3080102@textuality.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:48:38 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@above.proper.com Subject: Testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> 1 2 3 -- Cheers, Tim Bray (ongoing fragmented essay: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) From owner-atom-syntax Fri Jul 18 13:53:52 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6IKrqqt021496 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6IKrqM3021494 for atom-syntax-bks; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6IKrpqt021488 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (198-143-226-158.dsl.btitelecom.net [198.143.226.158]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6IKvDO07834 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:57:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3F185F8A.3060208@bitworking.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:58:50 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Testing References: <200307161333.h6GDXb4b082599@above.proper.com> In-Reply-To: <200307161333.h6GDXb4b082599@above.proper.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Testing From owner-atom-syntax Fri Jul 18 18:44:47 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6J1ilqt035926 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6J1ilI1035925 for atom-syntax-bks; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6J1ikqt035920 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6J1m6D21311 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:48:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3F18A287.1000209@bitworking.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:44:39 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Testing. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 05:12:51 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JCCpqt087247 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JCCpYT087246 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JCCoqt087240 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.218) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A000931E1 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:12:50 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:08:16 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Hi folks, Great to see the list. One thing about the syntax that concerns me greatly is that there doesn't yet appear to be a consistent way of interpreting material from other namespaces. I believe this to be a make or break issue for interop. Such a mechanism is also lacking from RSS 2.0, which relies on extension modules to define how they are to be used. This approach is IMHO totally inadequate, the main reason be that it is likely to lead to inconsistency in the way external data has to be handled by an Atom processor. This will make coding harder. The issue was however thoroughly covered in RSS 1.0 thanks to RDF/XML. I doubt very much that the richness of the full RDF graph is needed inside Atom, but I think it will be desirable to be able to extend into or attach a full graph if required. In fact, another justification for a sound extension mechanism is to be able to interoperate with RSS 1.0 and other RDF data. It has been suggested that "ignore anything you don't recognise" might be a suitable mechanism, but I believe this has two major flaws : the parts that aren't recognised may alter the meaning of other parts of the feed (e.g. a Creative Commons license, or a element saying "this is all a joke"), so their total omission may have side effects; valuable data is being thrown away (compare the RDF approach). A start has been made on defining extension modules on the Wiki [1], but as yet there doesn't seem to be anything substantial. I believe that such a mechanism can be defined without any impact on the work that has been done so far. All I think that is needed in the core is a means of saying whether an included element from another namespace is additional content, *or* is additional information about its parent. I've put a strawman on the Wiki [2], in brief : 1. Any elements outside of the Atom namespace within a <metadata> element will be interpreted as being about the parent element. 2. Any other elements outside of the Atom namespace will be interpreted as secondary content associated with their parent element. The use of a <metadata> element has prior art in SVG [3], where it seems to work quite well. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ExtensionModule [2] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/SyntaxExtensionMechanism [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/metadata.html ---- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 06:05:09 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD59qt090497 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JD59kh090495 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [209.61.183.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD57qt090486 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from intertwingly.net (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.66]) (authenticated) by chromium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6JD5Bn11118 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:05:12 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:04:39 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Danny Ayers wrote: > > I believe that such a mechanism can be defined without any impact on the > work that has been done so far. All I think that is needed in the core is a > means of saying whether an included element from another namespace is > additional content, *or* is additional information about its parent. I've > put a strawman on the Wiki [2] WOW. Orthogonal Extensibility. Love it. Contrast: <Envelope> <Header>  </Header> <Body> <entry>  </entry> </Body> </Envelope> With: <entry>  <metadata>  </metadata> </entry> A few points: * metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date content or metadata? If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing this entry, is that additional content or additional information about the entry? * if we go down this path, it would be worth having something analagous to the 'mustUnderstand' attribute as defined in the SOAP specification. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 06:04:08 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD48qt090343 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JD4818090341 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law12-oe49.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.18.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JD46qt090323 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney99@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:04:02 -0700 Received: from 66.92.145.79 by law12-oe49.law12.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:04:02 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.92.145.79] X-Originating-Email: [wkearney99@hotmail.com] Reply-To: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <3F18A287.1000209@bitworking.org> Subject: Re: Test Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:04:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <Law12-OE494lB4BwOZx0000d699@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 13:04:02.0586 (UTC) FILETIME=[39F077A0:01C34DF6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> 1... 2... 3... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Gregorio" <joe@bitworking.org> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: Test > > Testing. > > From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 06:34:49 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JDYnqt095870 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JDYnYN095869 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law12-oe64.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.18.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JDYlqt095837 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney99@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:34:38 -0700 Received: from 66.92.145.79 by oe64.adinternal.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:34:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.92.145.79] X-Originating-Email: [wkearney99@hotmail.com] Reply-To: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> To: "atom-syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Subject: prefixing mailing list messages? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:34:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 13:34:38.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[806F0CB0:01C34DFA] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Can we had the [atom-syntax] prefix prefixed in the subject line of messages from the mailing list? It makes sorting the out in the inbox a bit easier. And no, header lines don't really help. Thanks, -Bill Kearney From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:08:14 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JE8Eqt098215 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JE8EXp098214 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (mta2-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JE8Bqt098204 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@willow.frejol.org) Received: from willow.frejol.org ([80.1.28.119]) by mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20030719140810.RBP18309.mta2-svc.business.ntl.com@willow.frejol.org> for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:08:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3F1950C9.2040107@willow.frejol.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:08:09 +0100 From: Nick Boalch <nick@willow.frejol.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030701 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: prefixing mailing list messages? References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Bill Kearney wrote: > Can we had the [atom-syntax] prefix prefixed in the subject line of messages > from the mailing list? While we're doing issues with the list mechanics (atom-syntax-syntax? :) is there any chance of having Mail-Followup-To: set appropriately by the list software? Cheers, N. -- Nick Boalch <URL:http://nick.frejol.org/> From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:18:39 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIdqt098393 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JEIdCu098389 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law12-oe22.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.18.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIbqt098382 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney99@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:33 -0700 Received: from 66.92.145.79 by law12-oe22.law12.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:18:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.92.145.79] X-Originating-Email: [wkearney99@hotmail.com] Reply-To: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> <LAW12-OE649yfB4mvo9000053d5@hotmail.com> <3F1950C9.2040107@willow.frejol.org> Subject: Re: prefixing mailing list messages? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:18:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <Law12-OE22dmXYJrOOO0000df4d@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 14:18:33.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[A31A9260:01C34E00] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is an OLD argument. Some folks strongly disagree with this idea. I greatly prefer reply-to being the list and support Nick's suggestion. It also avoids the insane reply-to-all hassles of the thread particpants getting two copies. Yes, mail client software can be used to work around it. But most MUAs do a bad job of this. -Bill Kearney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Boalch" <nick@willow.frejol.org> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Re: prefixing mailing list messages? > > Bill Kearney wrote: > > Can we had the [atom-syntax] prefix prefixed in the subject line of messages > > from the mailing list? > > While we're doing issues with the list mechanics (atom-syntax-syntax? :) > is there any chance of having Mail-Followup-To: set appropriately by the > list software? From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:18:40 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIeqt098396 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JEIeBL098395 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (mta2-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEIcqt098387 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@willow.frejol.org) Received: from willow.frejol.org ([80.1.28.119]) by mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20030719141838.YNW18309.mta2-svc.business.ntl.com@willow.frejol.org> for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:18:38 +0100 Message-ID: <3F19533D.3050509@willow.frejol.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:18:37 +0100 From: Nick Boalch <nick@willow.frejol.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030701 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > content or metadata? To my mind, the issued date is definitely metadata -- particularly as our projected format supports various different kinds of date metadata about a given entry (created, issued, modified, &c, &c). > If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing > this entry, is that additional content or additional information about > the entry? This one's more ambiguous. I'd call it as additional content, I think, purely on the basis of safe generalisation. Sure, in many cases such information could arguably be considered metadata, but I reckon I can project a number of examples where 'mood' isn't a useful piece of additional information about an entry. Cheers, N. -- Nick Boalch <URL:http://nick.frejol.org/> From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 07:56:57 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEuvqt099094 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JEuvpB099093 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JEuuqt099081 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.209.190) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00AD5B30; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:56:30 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Sam Ruby" <rubys@intertwingly.net>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:51:55 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPMEIODGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > Contrast: > > <Envelope> > <Header> >  > </Header> > <Body> > <entry> >  > </entry> > </Body> > </Envelope> > > With: > > <entry> >  > <metadata> >  > </metadata> > </entry> A very interesting comparison! > A few points: > > * metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > content or metadata? If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the > person while composing this entry, is that additional content or > additional information about the entry? That's true, the content/meta divide is quite artificial (the same applies with the head/body approach). My thinking behind interpreting the (kind of) default inclusion as content is that a newsreader could just display it without thinking, whereas the <metadata> wrapper would be a big hint that perhaps this shouldn't simply be rendered in the viewer directly. I could be wrong, but it feels like this approach may make life easier at either end, and doesn't interfere with the rest of the syntax. > * if we go down this path, it would be worth having something analagous > to the 'mustUnderstand' attribute as defined in the SOAP specification. That sounds a very promising way of dealing with extensions that might say things like "not for republication". Cheers, Danny. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:07:59 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF7xqt099260 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JF7xQH099259 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF7wqt099254 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from textuality.com (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3AF1032A; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F195ECD.3000102@textuality.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:57 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > Danny Ayers wrote: >> >> I believe that such a mechanism can be defined without any impact on the >> work that has been done so far. All I think that is needed in the core >> is a >> means of saying whether an included element from another namespace is >> additional content, *or* is additional information about its parent. It's worth exploring, but could be a rat-hole. The line between metadata and data is super-fuzzy. Also, unless we can figure out how to be really clear what the expected impact on client software is, it's not worth doing. Sam Ruby wrote: > * metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > content or metadata? If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the > person while composing this entry, is that additional content or > additional information about the entry? Yep. THere are going to be a million corner cases. > * if we go down this path, it would be worth having something analagous > to the 'mustUnderstand' attribute as defined in the SOAP specification. This seems like a good idea, it's been more or less proven to work in the SOAP context. As I've said before, we shouldn't be trying to invent whizzy new technology here, we should just be trying for a clean clear specification of what's been proven to work. -- Cheers, Tim Bray (ongoing fragmented essay: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:09:53 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF9qqt099316 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JF9q21099315 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JF9kqt099309 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from textuality.com (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522351032A; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F195F3A.5020904@textuality.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:09:46 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: danny666@virgilio.it Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Danny Ayers wrote: > One thing about the syntax that concerns me greatly is that there doesn't > yet appear to be a consistent way of interpreting material from other > namespaces. I believe this to be a make or break issue for interop. This problem has never been solved in the general case that I know of. So I really hope that you're wrong on it's make-or-break-ness. Worth taking a whack at, but don't underestimate the difficulty. -- Cheers, Tim Bray (ongoing fragmented essay: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:40:18 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFeIqt000555 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JFeIme000554 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFeHqt000543 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.209.190) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A0009C854; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:40:12 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Tim Bray" <tbray@textuality.com> Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:35:36 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEJBDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F195F3A.5020904@textuality.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > > One thing about the syntax that concerns me greatly is that > there doesn't > > yet appear to be a consistent way of interpreting material from other > > namespaces. I believe this to be a make or break issue for interop. > > This problem has never been solved in the general case that I know of. > So I really hope that you're wrong on it's make-or-break-ness. Worth > taking a whack at, but don't underestimate the difficulty. (also >As I've said before, we shouldn't be trying to invent whizzy new >technology here, we should just be trying for a clean clear >specification of what's been proven to work.) I believe there is adequate (working!) prior art to point to something that will be appropriate for Atom. I reckon the techniques have been proven, it's just a matter of finding the sweet spot. RDF/XML guarantees we know *something* about material from other namespaces through conformity to the RDF model. It's already been decided that the uber-model approach of using a complete abstract language from which the syntax is derived (as in RDF) isn't desirable, yet RSS 1.0 shows that this approach is possible in the context of syndication. At the other extreme, Sam and others have experimented with directly inserting namespace-qualified xhtml into RSS feeds with the intention that it's there for "display as content". This worked. (Though I can't remember offhand how conflict with other content was handled). Element-wrapping of metadata to hide it is a technique proven in SVG. So I think a braindead simple "this is metadata"/"this is content" data model (expressed in the syntax) for extension material could work. My suggestion for the syntax almost certainly isn't ideal, but it's maybe a start. Cheers, Danny. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 08:42:34 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFgYqt000848 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JFgYdN000847 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFgWqt000832 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JFjdlg023422 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:45:39 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JFjcYV023418; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:45:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 19 Jul 2003 10:45:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m3adbaa5b1.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> I think making a distinction, outside of <content>, between what might be "metadata" and what might be "data" is a mistake. Virtually everything we're specifying already *is* metadata about a resource. From Danny's description of a <metadata> element for a feed or an entry, that means we have metadata for our metadata. I think the confusion comes from not knowing whether <entry> is the resource itself vs. <entry> being metadata about another resource (some entity logically or physically in <content>). While it is true that RDF is very clear about this (for any given subject URI, all its properties describe only that subject), RSS 1.0 actually has the same confusion we're talking about here. RSS 1.0 says the subject (rdf:about) of an item "is a URI which identifies the item", but it doesn't make clear whether "the item" is another resource or whether the <rss:item> RDF description itself can be the item. Most common usage is the former, but the latter is often used or proposed for things like tickers, playlists, or other ordered items where the items themselves are the subjects -- many of the same things proposed for Atom. I believe the answer to the question of "is this metadata about a resource or is this entry the resource" is centered around <content>. If content is a complete entity (embedded or by reference), this entry is metadata about the entity resource. If content is not present, empty, or is an entity fragment (the body of a log entry or comment, for example), the entry itself is the resource (content is the body value). In _either_ case, direct children of <entry> describe _the resource_ (as just defined). -- Ken P.S. +1 on a mustUnderstand facility. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 09:07:46 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG7jqt002329 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JG7jpG002328 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG7iqt002321 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JGAplg023559 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:10:51 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JGApHr023555; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:10:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 19 Jul 2003 11:10:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m365lya451.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Here are some other facets I see surrounding extension mechanisms, with my preferences stated below: "Wrapping" or "boxing" extensions Extension modules define a wrapper element, properties of the extension appear as children of the extension. Entities and Properties Certain elements are identified as "entities" (as in "entity-relationship model" for RDBs or as classes in OO or RDF). Direct child elements of those entities are either properties or other entities. Entities and properties are fully qualified, either in the core Atom namespace or an extension namespace. Display unknown entities/properties by default Don't display unknown entities/properties by default This relates to how one "ignores what they don't understand." In HTML <body>, unknown elements are treated as if the element tags didn't exist -- their content is displayed by default. My preference is for "Entities and Properties" and "Don't display unknown entities/properties by default." The latter is somewhat in perspective of the former: if these are like columns in a table (where everybody can add their own columns), it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily display every column value. Instead, display well-known columns, columns the user asks for, and columns where another extension column flags that they should be displayed (ie. by providing a stylesheet). -- Ken From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 09:08:23 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG8Mqt002339 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JG8M5B002338 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ehost004.intermedia.net (ehost004.intermedia.net [206.40.48.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JG8Lqt002333 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.madia@workstate.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:22 -0700 Message-ID: <FF1837A1813CF54F8A3579D3F46EB40F038B29EA@ehost004.intermedia.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Extension mechanism Thread-Index: AcNOD+KaeUmsx45OR0mS08hkGCH1Jg== From: "Joe Madia" <joe.madia@workstate.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h6JG8Mqt002334 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> A big +1 on attempting to work out some sort of mustUnderstand rule for Atom extensions. On the flip side, I completely agree with Tim's hesitance/pragmatism regarding this issue. My biggest concern: The mustUnderstand header is used successfully in 'some other access protocols' because a rigid processing model is also defined. Atom does not currently (and probably should not) have a predefined processing model and this may limit the ability to add some type of mustUnderstand construct. In spite of the potential problems, I think we should try to work something out... if it becomes a rat hole then we'll just abandon it and move on. Joe From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 11:07:28 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JI7Sqt007047 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JI7SKq007046 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JI7Rqt007041 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JIAalg024147 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:10:36 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JIAZ18024143; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:10:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Extension mechanism References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPAEJDDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 19 Jul 2003 13:10:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPAEJDDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m3znja8k10.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> writes: > I was thinking the <metadata> element could go anywhere, so it might > not be about an entry or the feed - the other obvious example being > for it to apply to the <author> of a feed (e.g. some FOAF). > But I'm not sure this is an issue that affects the <metadata> > element if you can put it where you like : > > <link>/weblog/archive/45.html<metadata>...</metadata></link> > > <content> > ...blah... > <metadata>...</metadata> > </content> > > (the link one is a bit ugly-looking, hmm...) <link> and <content> are literal values. Additional markup can only be embedded within them according to their content models. <link> would be #PCDATA and I don't think anyone wants to complicate that by saying element markup can go in there. <content> is based on its media type, but would still logically either be #PCDATA or a content model defined by some other specification (or an Atom content module, as in ComponentBlog). Other elements, like <author>, may themselves be "entity" elements and allow extended properties directly as children. > [...] it doesn't really answer how one might inline content from > another (unknown, arbitrary) namespace - let's say we wanted some > text plus a bit of SVG. If the rule was such content had to go in a > content element of its own, I guess that would work. This was the problem I saw with xhtml:body in RSS that we've solved far more neatly with atom:content. The problem was that xhtml:body is more a "type" than a property name; atom:content is a property name. As far as inlining content from another namespace, the same pattern applies: give it a property name -- the content model is constrained by the schema that defines the property name (readers should expect arbitrary XML for unknown properties). > btw, I personally don't really care too much how this is done, but I > think not sorting it out now would in effect be leaving the broadest > set of use cases (those involving extensions - topics, reviews, > threads, foaf etc etc) without a hook on which to hang their > data. I agree. I described a syntax pattern in Syntax[1] that I believe snapshots a common view of the Atom pattern, but there's not consensus on every part, which I wrote here[2] before the mail list was working right. I think it's very important that we define a general pattern for schema syntaxes so property or extension models are consistent and easier to develop without having to always rethink basic practices. -- Ken [1] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Syntax [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00000.html From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 11:39:34 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JIdYqt007874 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JIdYjC007873 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JIdXqt007840 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.210.43) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00ADCF6F; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:39:21 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Ken MacLeod" <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:34:45 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEJGDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <m3znja8k10.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Heh, I must apologise - I only scanned your previous mail, its significance in the context of an extension mechanism flew right past me. > I described a syntax pattern in Syntax[1] that I believe snapshots a > common view of the Atom pattern, but there's not consensus on every > part, which I wrote here[2] before the mail list was working right. > > I think it's very important that we define a general pattern for > schema syntaxes so property or extension models are consistent and > easier to develop without having to always rethink basic practices. Agreed. The "Entity" elements you describe sound mightily like web resources - will these entities each have a URI? Similarly, the property elements correspond well to the parts of RDF with the same name - this could be a big plus for interop. Cheers, Danny. > -- Ken > > [1] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Syntax > [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00000.html From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 13:51:28 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JKpSqt014327 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JKpSwC014325 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from gkhs.net (exim@spark.gkhs.net [81.6.252.146]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JKpRqt014320 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aq+lists@gkhs.net) Received: from maelstrom.water.gkhs.net ([10.1.0.3]) by gkhs.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 19dyfw-0001e0-00 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:51:28 +0100 From: Aquarion <aq+lists@gkhs.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Extension mechanism Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:51:40 +0100 Message-ID: <ebbjhvghjgsspbmodfee0u6ojs3g7h4r9j@4ax.com> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1941E7.4000901@intertwingly.net> <3F19533D.3050509@willow.frejol.org> In-Reply-To: <3F19533D.3050509@willow.frejol.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h6JKpSqt014321 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:18:37 +0100, in gkhs.weblogs.atom-syntax you wrote: > >Sam Ruby wrote: > >> metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date >> content or metadata? > >To my mind, the issued date is definitely metadata -- particularly as >our projected format supports various different kinds of date metadata >about a given entry (created, issued, modified, &c, &c). > >> If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing >> this entry, is that additional content or additional information about >> the entry? > >This one's more ambiguous. I'd call it as additional content, I think, >purely on the basis of safe generalisation. Sure, in many cases such >information could arguably be considered metadata, but I reckon I can >project a number of examples where 'mood' isn't a useful piece of >additional information about an entry. So how about if there were two container classes, <content> and <metadata> with same spec, to give the client a hint as to if it should be contained or just referenced to. For example: <atomExample> <content> <item type="text/plain" lang="en">Hello World!</item> <item type="image/gif" src="http://www.aquarionics.com/assets/hello.gif">Hello World image</item> </content> <metadata> <item type="audio/mp3" src="http://www.aquarionics.com/assets/hello.mp3">Aquarion reading "Hello World"</item> <dc:subject>Greetings</dc:subject> <link rel="crossreference" href="http://www2.latech.edu/~acm/HelloWorld.shtml">Hello World in different languages</link> </metadata> </atomExample> This leaves the decision of MetaData up to - primarily - the feed producer and - secondarily - the user agent. -- Aquarion http://www.aquarionics.com From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 15:06:37 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JM6bqt019795 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JM6bHN019794 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.xaraya.com (xaraya.com [207.44.194.106]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6JM6Zqt019787 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from niceguyeddie@xaraya.com) Received: by mail.xaraya.com (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 892F93E00EA; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:16:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from MCNABB (md-wmnsmd-cuda1-c8a-a-99.chvlva.adelphia.net [68.65.108.99]) by mail.xaraya.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E068B3E00E8 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:16:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <034d01c34e42$2367a930$1202a8c0@MCNABB> From: "J. Cox" <niceguyeddie@xaraya.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: NNTP Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:07:25 -0400 Organization: Xaraya X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Xaraya's Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Hi, Just wondering if there is an NNTP version of this list? If not, I can probably help with some resources, as I am interested in following the development. Thanks! J. Cox http://www.xaraya.com From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 18:43:29 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K1hTqt057719 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6K1hSvk057717 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:43:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vesta.ectoplasm.org (vesta.ectoplasm.org [64.49.222.108]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K1hRqt057673 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [218.5.1.141] (unknown [218.5.1.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by vesta.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA50A5057 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:42:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: test From: Zhang Yining <yining@ectoplasm.org> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 20 Jul 2003 09:36:32 +0800 Message-Id: <1058665018.6041.24.camel@yining> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> how come the emails didn't catch up? From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 19 20:36:37 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K3abqt076907 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6K3ab84076906 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:36:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6K3aaqt076901 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6K3eDo24570 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:40:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:36:33 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Here are my comments on the 2003/07/01 snapshot: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2003/07/01/example.necho 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. 2) entry.content - I think there should be only one, and it should be required, and it may be empty. 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace with a single element called entry.author.id. Do the same for entry.contributor. Lastly, a clarification, if an element is noted as being required, can it still be zero length? I ask because entry.title is required and has a note that it may be zero length, making me doubt that the other required elements may be zero length. Thanks, -joe -- http://BitWorking.org http://WellFormedWeb.org From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 05:30:18 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KCUIqt029025 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KCUIXo029023 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:30:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fuzzygroup.net ([65.61.162.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with SMTP id h6KCUGqt029017 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@feedster.com) Received: (qmail 17507 invoked by uid 82); 20 Jul 2003 07:29:31 -0500 Received: from h002078d4bbaa.ne.client2.attbi.com (HELO advalgo.com) (scott@feedster.com@24.60.137.182) by 65.61.162.22 (qmail 1.03 + ejcp) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2003 07:29:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback From: "J. Scott Johnson" <scott@feedster.com> Reply-To: scott@feedster.com To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Feedster, Inc. Message-Id: <1058704104.7865.133.camel@devserver01.internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Date: 20 Jul 2003 08:28:24 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Amen! subtitle needs to be optional. IMHO author needs to be optional. If you have any cases of metasyndication like Feedster, you don't have an author at all generally. And if its required then at least allow 0 length. Scott On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 23:36, Joe Gregorio wrote: > Here are my comments on the 2003/07/01 snapshot: > http://intertwingly.net/stories/2003/07/01/example.necho > > 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. > > 2) entry.content - I think there should be only one, > and it should be required, and it may be empty. > > 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace > with a single element called entry.author.id. > Do the same for entry.contributor. > > Lastly, a clarification, if an element is noted as being > required, can it still be zero length? I ask because > entry.title is required and has a note that it may be zero > length, making me doubt that the other required elements may > be zero length. > > Thanks, > -joe -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * J. Scott Johnson, Co-Founder Feedster, LLC Making RSS & Weblogs Searchable web: http://www.feedster.com/ mail: scott@feedster.com im: AIM, Y!: fuzzygroup MSN: fuzzygroup@hotmail.com Jabber: fuzzygroup@jabber.com ICQ: 275649261 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:01:01 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD11qt032924 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KD11h2032923 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD0xqt032762 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.98) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00AEF0ED; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:00:45 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: <scott@feedster.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:56:08 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEKJDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1058704104.7865.133.camel@devserver01.internal> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > subtitle needs to be optional. +1 > IMHO author needs to be optional. If you have any cases of > metasyndication like Feedster, you don't have an author at all > generally. And if its required then at least allow 0 length. If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', then the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. Having said that, I'm not so sure <author> needs to be a mandatory element. There are other machine sources (like the Gump feed [1]) where the URI of the feed performs a similar role, and probably is all you ever need to know. Whether or not this also should be made explicit alongside the feed contents, so it is preserved in republication...I'm really not sure. What is needed is a way of ensuring that attribution to the original source can *somehow* be maintained as well as possible. I think it would also be desirable to make it easy to include/obtain the chain of republishers (machine or human) that an entry had followed from the source to the current presentation, whatever that may be. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/index.rss From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:02:49 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD2nqt033205 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KD2nlS033204 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fuzzygroup.net ([65.61.162.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with SMTP id h6KD2lqt033195 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@feedster.com) Received: (qmail 18515 invoked by uid 82); 20 Jul 2003 08:02:01 -0500 Received: from h002078d4bbaa.ne.client2.attbi.com (HELO advalgo.com) (scott@feedster.com@24.60.137.182) by 65.61.162.22 (qmail 1.03 + ejcp) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2003 08:02:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback From: "J. Scott Johnson" <scott@feedster.com> Reply-To: scott@feedster.com To: danny666@virgilio.it Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEKJDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGEKJDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Feedster, Inc. Message-Id: <1058706054.7865.169.camel@devserver01.internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Date: 20 Jul 2003 09:00:55 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Re: If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', then the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. If you have the metasyndication tool being the author then the metasyndication tool gets credit for other people's posts. That feels wrong. Scott On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 08:56, Danny Ayers wrote: > > subtitle needs to be optional. > > +1 > > > IMHO author needs to be optional. If you have any cases of > > metasyndication like Feedster, you don't have an author at all > > generally. And if its required then at least allow 0 length. > > If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', then > the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. > > Having said that, I'm not so sure <author> needs to be a mandatory element. > There are other machine sources (like the Gump feed [1]) where the URI of > the feed performs a similar role, and probably is all you ever need to know. > Whether or not this also should be made explicit alongside the feed > contents, so it is preserved in republication...I'm really not sure. > > What is needed is a way of ensuring that attribution to the original source > can *somehow* be maintained as well as possible. I think it would also be > desirable to make it easy to include/obtain the chain of republishers > (machine or human) that an entry had followed from the source to the current > presentation, whatever that may be. > > Cheers, > Danny. > > [1] http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/index.rss -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * J. Scott Johnson, Co-Founder Feedster, LLC Making RSS & Weblogs Searchable web: http://www.feedster.com/ mail: scott@feedster.com im: AIM, Y!: fuzzygroup MSN: fuzzygroup@hotmail.com Jabber: fuzzygroup@jabber.com ICQ: 275649261 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:07:40 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD7eqt034076 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KD7ej2034074 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:07:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KD7dqt034048 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.98) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A000C379C; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:07:31 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: <scott@feedster.com> Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:02:54 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPAEKKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1058706054.7865.169.camel@devserver01.internal> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > If author is considered more generally like dc:creator or even 'agent', > then the metasyndication tool itself can be the author. > > If you have the metasyndication tool being the author then the > metasyndication tool gets credit for other people's posts. That feels > wrong. Good point, that's certainly not desirable at the <entry> level. Do we have anything corresponding to creator of the feed yet? From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:33:19 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDXJqt037420 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KDXIa1037419 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [209.61.183.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDXHqt037413 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from intertwingly.net (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.66]) (authenticated) by chromium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KDXNA16048 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:33:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:32:57 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Joe Gregorio wrote: > > Here are my comments on the 2003/07/01 snapshot: > http://intertwingly.net/stories/2003/07/01/example.necho > > 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. In rss 2.0, rss.channel.description is required. Looking at typical usages ("theories of software development", "it's just data"), this appears to be best categorized as a subtitle. > 2) entry.content - I think there should be only one, > and it should be required, and it may be empty. I'd like to wait until the API is flushed out before shutting out this possibility. In particular, it would be nice to see what the consensus is for handling multipart (e.g., text + pictures) entries turns out to be. As for "may be empty", consider that there are multiple types of feeds. Some are summary only. Some provide the full content. Some provide both. > 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace > with a single element called entry.author.id. > Do the same for entry.contributor. If you had said entry.author.link, I would have agreed. Why "id"? > Lastly, a clarification, if an element is noted as being > required, can it still be zero length? I ask because > entry.title is required and has a note that it may be zero > length, making me doubt that the other required elements may > be zero length. Title being explicitly zero length was intended to promote the idea of a marker entry which indicated essentially "this space intentionally left blank". I expected pushback in the other direction, but perhaps it is better to have marker elements everywhere. > Thanks, > -joe > From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 06:53:38 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDrcqt038727 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KDrbID038726 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KDraqt038720 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KDvFL31615 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:57:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1A9E8C.6060508@bitworking.org> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:52:12 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> In-Reply-To: <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > Joe Gregorio wrote: > >> 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace >> with a single element called entry.author.id. >> Do the same for entry.contributor. > > > I would have been with you had you said entry.author.link. Why are > you suggesting an id? entry.author.link is fine, I am not tied to a particular name, I just believe there should be a single URI that identifies the author. One downfall of .weblog and .homepage is that it seems to imply that the author is a person, when in fact the author could be an organization or an automated tool. -joe From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 07:09:09 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KE99qt039100 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KE99Tb039091 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scandium.sabren.com (scandium.sabren.com [209.61.155.99]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KE94qt039055 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@bitworking.org) Received: from bitworking.org (adsl-80-203-24.rdu.bellsouth.net [65.80.203.24]) (authenticated) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KECiL32304 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:12:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1AA22C.10709@bitworking.org> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:07:40 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback (multiple content elements) References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> In-Reply-To: <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > As far as only one content element per entry goes, I've seen this > brought up a number of times. One thing I would like to see before > this is settled is some more experience with usage as an API. In > particular, I'm interested in multipart blog entries (text plus > pictures). If no compelling need emerges from this, I would agree > that having at most one (or perhaps exactly one) would be simpler. Agreed, more experience with an API would be preferred before changing this. -joe From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 07:47:40 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KEleqt040397 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KEleDS040396 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KEldqt040391 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KEp5lg005004 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6KEp5iA005000; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> <3F1A9E8C.6060508@bitworking.org> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 20 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: <3F1A9E8C.6060508@bitworking.org> Message-ID: <m3r84l8d5y.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Joe Gregorio <joe@bitworking.org> writes: > Sam Ruby wrote: > > > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > >> 3) Drop entry.author.weblog and entry.author.weblog, replace > >> with a single element called entry.author.id. > >> Do the same for entry.contributor. > > > > I would have been with you had you said entry.author.link. Why > > are you suggesting an id? > > entry.author.link is fine, I am not tied to a particular name, I > just believe there should be a single URI that identifies the > author. For interoperability with RDF, it would be great if any element considered an "entity" have an optional <id> that was the unique URI for that entity. The author case actually ends up being an exception! The RDF folks (and mostly driven by the FOAF folks in particular, who work with this every day) have come to the general conclusion that no one really can come up with a workable URI scheme for "people". Therefore, they recommend foaf:Person *not* have a subject URI and queries be made on otherwise unique properties, such as 'mbox' and, for the spam-blocking challenged, 'mbox_sha1sum' (the latter being just a one-way hash of 'mbox' to prevent email address harvesting). > One downfall of .weblog and .homepage is that it seems to imply that > the author is a person, when in fact the author could be an > organization or an automated tool. Organizations and systems can have weblogs and homepages, too. Occasionally, "weblog" isn't accurate as there is no person specifically selecting the entries to display, but it's still an ordered collection of resources presented day-to-day. Following in the footsteps of the FOAF folks though, none of weblog, homepage, email address, or other property be considered a canonical "id" of that person, organization, or system. You can't just "pick one" and have it make sense as an id in the conceptual model of an author. -- Ken From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 09:41:20 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KGfKqt045491 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KGfKaN045489 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KGfJqt045471 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeffreywinter@comcast.net) Received: from winter (h00c04fa0fd63.ne.client2.attbi.com[65.96.172.188](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200307201641150120057sl7e>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:41:15 +0000 Message-ID: <002c01c34edd$3fc48ad0$6401a8c0@winter> From: "Jeffrey Winter" <jeffreywinter@comcast.net> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPEEIKDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:37:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; referenced as shown here: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample ; or is this still open for debate? Thanks, - Jeff From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 12:05:34 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJ5Yqt059899 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KJ5Y14059898 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJ5Sqt059880 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.42) by vsmtp12.tin.it (6.7.016) id 3EE0612D00AFB1BC; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:05:13 +0200 Reply-To: <danny666@virgilio.it> From: "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> To: "Jeffrey Winter" <jeffreywinter@comcast.net>, <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:00:37 +0200 Message-ID: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002c01c34edd$3fc48ad0$6401a8c0@winter> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> > Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; > referenced as shown here: > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample > > ; or is this still open for debate? I hope it's still open for debate, especially in respect of nested comments if that is expected to go beyond a simple entry-->comments relationship. The structure of comments is just a single aspect of the larger issue of message threading, which IMHO goes way beyond the scope of Atom. Myself and others have looked into this in the context of ThreadsML [1]. If nesting is used for the expression of thread structure, then it is hobbled from the word go - how for example do you represent a comment that summarizes two separate threads? Personally I think it would be better to keep threading (beyond 1:n, entry:comments) away from the core of Atom, though I imagine that it will be one of the early extensions. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsML From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 12:36:13 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJaDqt061269 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KJaDxo061268 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KJaBqt061263 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:36:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from solitude@vkps.co.uk) Received: from modem-1424.baboon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.21.144] helo=vkps.co.uk) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19eJyb-0003HY-DS; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:36:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:36:11 +0100 From: Gary F <solitude@vkps.co.uk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030616 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Sam Ruby wrote: > > Joe Gregorio wrote: > >> >> 1) feed.subtitle should be optional. > > > In rss 2.0, rss.channel.description is required. Looking at typical > usages ("theories of software development", "it's just data"), this > appears to be best categorized as a subtitle. > Does anyone read the wiki? We reached consensus on the example page that subtitle should be pulled since we already had summary which does exactly what description does. We agreed to keep one or the other, but not both. Subtitle lost. To catch up, read http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/SubTitle . It has been linked to from the EchoExample page (where the argument originally occurred) for weeks now. From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 13:01:25 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KK1Pqt061665 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KK1PNs061664 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KK1Oqt061659 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jjulian2@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h6KK1QqS013512 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CompaqLaptop (adsl-66-143-44-20.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net [66.143.44.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h6KK1N9d017227 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200307202001.h6KK1N9d017227@mac.com> From: "Jeff Julian" <jjulian2@mac.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:01:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5329 In-reply-to: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Thread-Index: AcNO8j0PSFr+OmvFTg+0qbLyTpMItAABr7BQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> I personally like the idea of nested comments. I think Atom feeds should be easily transformable into the actual blog site itself. My blogging tool, geekswithblogs.com uses the RSS feed with additional nodes, like comments and link categories to build the output site with simple XSLT transforms. http://jjulian.geekswithblogs.com/BlogFeed.aspx is the feed I use to build the site. I would love to see Atom have a similar format. Jeff Julian -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Danny Ayers Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 2:01 PM To: Jeffrey Winter; atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback > Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; > referenced as shown here: > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample > > ; or is this still open for debate? I hope it's still open for debate, especially in respect of nested comments if that is expected to go beyond a simple entry-->comments relationship. The structure of comments is just a single aspect of the larger issue of message threading, which IMHO goes way beyond the scope of Atom. Myself and others have looked into this in the context of ThreadsML [1]. If nesting is used for the expression of thread structure, then it is hobbled from the word go - how for example do you represent a comment that summarizes two separate threads? Personally I think it would be better to keep threading (beyond 1:n, entry:comments) away from the core of Atom, though I imagine that it will be one of the early extensions. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsML From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 13:13:29 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KKDTqt062568 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KKDS7K062567 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [209.61.183.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KKDPqt062558 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from intertwingly.net (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.66]) (authenticated) by chromium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6KKDVq05001; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:13:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1AF7CC.9020304@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:13:00 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary F <solitude@vkps.co.uk> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Gary F wrote: > > Does anyone read the wiki? We reached consensus on the example page that > subtitle should be pulled since we already had summary which does > exactly what description does. We agreed to keep one or the other, but > not both. Subtitle lost. To catch up, read > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/SubTitle . > > It has been linked to from the EchoExample page (where the argument > originally occurred) for weeks now. I, for one, would like to see a change log from the 0.1 snapshot. I'm quite willing to produce one, or it could be produced collaboratively. Here's my thoughts on the current example: Feed summary works for me. (I'd prefer subtitle, but ...) Feed modified appears to be gone. At the moment, it appears that author is outside of the entry, which would be problematic for my comment feeds. Contributor is missing. This is supposed to be a 'maximal' feed? A <url> element inside of <author> seems to have replaced <homepage> and <weblog>. <link> would seem to me to be more consistent. Entry id is now an attribute. I'd still prefer a URI. Subtitle is gone from entry. I'm OK with that. Issued is UTC. Sigh. There seems to be a summary inside the entry and inside the first content. Seems redundant. From an xml point of view, mode=escaped and mode=cdata seems redundant. The body in the html example is in the wrong namespace? - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 14:26:44 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLQiqt069835 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KLQiUc069834 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLQgqt069828 for <atom-syntax@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doug@sonosphere.com) Received: from h-69-3-26-2.snvacaid.covad.net ([69.3.26.2] helo=sonosphere.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19eLhc-0002tA-00 for atom-syntax@above.proper.com; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:26:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: snapshot feedback From: Doug Wyatt <doug@sonosphere.com> To: atom-syntax@above.proper.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <DBAD9BF4-BAF8-11D7-A7C7-000393A34B5A@sonosphere.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> I hacked together a prototype feed in my custom system: http://www.sonosphere.com/atom.xml I think I was copying from Mark Pilgrim's example as well as the 1.0 snapshot. To elaborate on the unresolved issues I list in a comment at the top of the feed: - <description> makes a lot more sense than <subtitle>. Something for the user to see in an aggregator when trying to decide whether to browse a new feed. - should there be <language> at the feed level? (and more than 1 of them for multilingual feeds?) The RSS 2.0 spec explains that this may be useful for aggregators, to allow the user to search for feeds only in a certain language - having a feed-level <author> seems like a step towards solving both the problem of aggregator-as-author and redundant (and a bit verbose) per-entry <author>s in a single-author feed. - having a feed-level <copyright> seems desirable - (dates, subjects - just notes to myself to do this) The biggest implementation issue, from my POV, is how to treat URL's in HTML embedded in <content>. In my prototype, all the local URL's are absolute paths from the top of my site -- which is not the same as the <feed>/<link>. XIST (the toolkit I'm using) may actually make it relatively painless to transform them into absolute URL's, but it seems simpler all around to have a base URL on the feed -- HTML renderers must have a concept of a base URL, so why not save the generator the trouble of not being able to put one in the feed? Doug From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 14:36:49 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLanqt070188 for <atom-syntax-bks@above.proper.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KLam1b070185 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLakqt070180 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLeJlg007219 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:40:19 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6KLeJt2007215; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:40:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Date: 20 Jul 2003 16:40:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <BKELLDAGKABIOCHDFDBPGELCDGAA.danny666@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <m3n0f898sc.fsf@bitsko.slc.ut.us> Lines: 68 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> "Danny Ayers" <danny666@virgilio.it> writes: > > Where do things stand with Comments? Will comments be nested; > > referenced as shown here: > > > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/CommentEntryExample > The structure of comments is just a single aspect of the larger > issue of message threading, which IMHO goes way beyond the scope of > Atom. Myself and others have looked into this in the context of > ThreadsML [1]. If nesting is used for the expression of thread > structure, then it is hobbled from the word go - how for example do > you represent a comment that summarizes two separate threads? I've been working on a sample RESTful server[2] and am in the process of adding comment support to it, to show POST and GET-queries. One current practice using RSS is to use an RSS channel per weblog item to hold a comment feed. That could use a threading model but I'm not convinced a "feed" is the right way to model comments. An alternative, that I'm sketching out in the sample server, is modeled as a query "what are all the references you have to this URI?", where URI can be the entry, or it can be the weblog, a story, audio, photos, or other resources at the site. References could include other entries, comments, trackbacks, referrers, known directory listings, etc. A similar query returning the same type of results could also be sent to a search site like Technorati or a third-party annotation server, and a reader would then have a union of all the references. The result set would use a highly constrained (minimal data) profile of Atom entities and allow entities from third parties (in their own namespaces): <references xmlns="http://example.com/atom/ns#" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" xmlns:daypop="http://www.daypop.com/ns#" xmlns:threads="http://purl.org/threads"> <comment> <link>http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/comments/restful-1.atom</link> <title>RESTful comment http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/entries/restful.atom http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/comments/restful-2.atom RESTful comment, part deux http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/comments/restful-1.atom http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi Ken MacLeod's Weblog http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/categories/REST RESTful comment, part deux http://www.daypop.com/search?q=link%3Abitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/entries/restful.atom Searching All Weblogs for link bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.cgi/entries/restful.atom -- Ken > [1] http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsML [2] http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/atom.txt From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 14:52:50 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLqoqt070701 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KLqoYq070700 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vesta.ectoplasm.org (vesta.ectoplasm.org [64.49.222.108]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KLqnqt070693 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [218.5.1.141] (unknown [218.5.1.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by vesta.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F357A5045 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:52:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback (multiple content elements) From: Zhang Yining To: Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: <3F1AA22C.10709@bitworking.org> References: <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> <3F1AA22C.10709@bitworking.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10) Date: 21 Jul 2003 05:52:19 +0800 Message-Id: <1058737955.1340.24.camel@yining> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 22:07, Joe Gregorio wrote: > > Sam Ruby wrote: > > > As far as only one content element per entry goes, I've seen this > > brought up a number of times. One thing I would like to see before > > this is settled is some more experience with usage as an API. In > > particular, I'm interested in multipart blog entries (text plus > > pictures). If no compelling need emerges from this, I would agree > > that having at most one (or perhaps exactly one) would be simpler. > > Agreed, more experience with an API would be preferred before changing this. > > -joe > Multipart content entry is definitely a requirement, especially for artists who blog about their art works (drawings, photos, musics, etc), and textfying binary data using Base64 should get them into xml. ... YTphYWEFh...YTphWYE ... Here are something important I can think of (there should be more), 1. Ordering - when the feed/entry is retrieved, the order of the content elements is maintained as it was created; 2. Copyright might be applied differently on different content element; 3. Metadata might be necessary for each base64'ed binary content element; I will try to work out an experimental implementation for this. Regards, Yining From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 15:30:06 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KMU6qt071488 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KMU6jB071487 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:30:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KMU5qt071482 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:30:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from solitude@vkps.co.uk) Received: from modem-938.dasyure.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.51.170] helo=vkps.co.uk) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19eMgj-0006RR-R9; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 23:29:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3F1B17E3.3010504@vkps.co.uk> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 23:29:55 +0100 From: Gary F User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a) Gecko/20030616 Thunderbird/0.1a X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback References: <3F1A9A09.2080601@intertwingly.net> <3F1AEF2B.1060906@vkps.co.uk> <3F1AF7CC.9020304@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1AF7CC.9020304@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Sam Ruby wrote: > > > Feed summary works for me. (I'd prefer subtitle, but ...) > ... > > Subtitle is gone from entry. I'm OK with that. I think we just wanted to keep this consistent (as I see it, they did the same job at their respective level). > > There seems to be a summary inside the entry and inside the first > content. Seems redundant. > Quite right. I've added a note to the bottom of the EchoExample page about removing it (giving some time to see whether there is a reason for it in the first place). From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 16:12:25 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KNCPqt072769 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KNCPdh072766 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:12:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-65-30-234-116.mn.rr.com [65.30.234.116]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KNCNqt072759 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us) Received: from localhost.localdomain (tara [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KNFwlg007838 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:15:58 -0500 Received: (from ken@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6KNFwDd007834; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:15:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: ken set sender to ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us using -f To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Snapshot feedback (multiple content elements) References: <3F1A0E41.9090103@bitworking.org> <3F1A324C.5020705@apache.org> <3F1AA22C.10709@bitworking.org> <1058737955.1340.24.camel@yining> From: Ken MacLeod Date: 20 Jul 2003 18:15:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1058737955.1340.24.camel@yining> Message-ID: Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Zhang Yining writes: > Multipart content entry is definitely a requirement, especially for > artists who blog about their art works (drawings, photos, musics, > etc), and textfying binary data using Base64 should get them into > xml. > > > ... > type=applicatoin/jpg>YTphYWEFh...YTphWYE > ... > Note one of the proposed alternatives, which make only have "one" content but not only supports multiple content, but can distinguish whether those multiple contents are alternatives (pick the best), related (one or more are primary, the rest are used by reference), mixed (don't know which is primary or best), and parallel (try to present all simultaneously, like an image and audio). This alternative is presented on the content[1] and MimeContent[2] pages on the wiki, and looks like this for the example above: ... YTphYWEFh...YTphWYE ... The multipart content type is defined by RFC2046[3]. > 1. Ordering - when the feed/entry is retrieved, the order of the > content elements is maintained as it was created; This is also true within multipart content types. For example, within a multipart/alternative it is defined that the *last* part is the one the publisher thinks is best. -- Ken [1] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/content [2] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MimeContent [3] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2046.txt From owner-atom-syntax Sun Jul 20 16:41:57 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KNfvqt074052 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6KNfvKF074051 for atom-syntax-bks; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:41:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6KNfpqt074038 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.210.19) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F16C22A000DFDF1; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:41:42 +0200 Reply-To: From: "Danny Ayers" To: "Ken MacLeod" , Subject: RE: Snapshot feedback Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:37:05 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > One current practice using RSS is to use an RSS channel per weblog > item to hold a comment feed. That could use a threading model but I'm > not convinced a "feed" is the right way to model comments. Agreed on the latter point - I think it better to consider the comments as first-class entries, which pretty well follows from prior art in techniques like Dialog Mapping and IBIS. This works well in the RDF model, where, e.g. for IBIS the entries may be instances of Argument, Question or Decision and the relationships between them can be more specific properties than merely a reply, e.g. "pro" if one argument supports another. > An alternative, that I'm sketching out in the sample server, is > modeled as a query "what are all the references you have to this > URI?", where URI can be the entry, or it can be the weblog, a story, > audio, photos, or other resources at the site. References could > include other entries, comments, trackbacks, referrers, known > directory listings, etc. A similar query returning the same type of > results could also be sent to a search site like Technorati or a > third-party annotation server, and a reader would then have a union of > all the references. This is a very interesting approach, and sounds entirely feasible, but I can't help feeling from your example that it's looking tied to specific vocabularies/terms (comment, weblog, category etc) when the query functionality could be completely abstracted away from the (weblog) languages, and made more fine-grained ("what are all the references by Ken since July 2002"). Personally I'd map it all to RDF vocabularies first and use a query language like RQL...but you've probably gathered that that's my hammer of choice. (This isn't far off what's done by the TAP augmented search demo, btw - http://tap.stanford.edu/tap/ss.html) One thing I am sure of is that Atom should be defined in such a way as to make both the approach you describe and my (hypothetical) approach as straightforward to implement as possible. Cheers, Danny. From owner-atom-syntax Tue Jul 22 08:18:55 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6MFItqt053510 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6MFItKG053509 for atom-syntax-bks; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vsmtp4.tin.it (vsmtp4.tin.it [212.216.176.224]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6MFInqt053492 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny666@virgilio.it) Received: from trotter (80.182.204.146) by vsmtp4.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F15783200238C4F for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:18:39 +0200 Reply-To: From: "Danny Ayers" To: "Atom-Syntax" Subject: FW: Extension mechanism Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:13:56 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: (This might just be a test - I got a "timed out" response, apologies if it actually made it to the list) > > metadata is actually a matter of perspective. Is the issued date > > content or metadata? > > To my mind, the issued date is definitely metadata -- particularly as > our projected format supports various different kinds of date metadata > about a given entry (created, issued, modified, &c, &c). > > > If LiveJournal wants to capture the mood of the person while composing > > this entry, is that additional content or additional information about > > the entry? > > This one's more ambiguous. I'd call it as additional content, I think, > purely on the basis of safe generalisation. Sure, in many cases such > information could arguably be considered metadata, but I reckon I can > project a number of examples where 'mood' isn't a useful piece of > additional information about an entry. Right. I think these are reasonable examples, both close to the borderline, but I think personally I'd follow your interpretation. This nicely highlights my concern - how is the receiving agent expected to know what to do? By wrapping the issued date in a element the publisher is providing a hint - "don't display this if you don't understand it". On the other hand if 'mood' were expressed directly in an element from another namespace it could be displayed with whatever rendering was considered appropriate for "unknown" content. e.g. [mood : pretty happy] Cheers, Danny. From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 26 05:25:56 2003 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6QCPuqt058167 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6QCPueQ058166 for atom-syntax-bks; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:25:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.hispeed.ch (mxout.hispeed.ch [62.2.95.247]) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6QCPpqt058154 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael.wechner@wyona.org) Received: from wyona.org (dclient217-162-174-147.hispeed.ch [217.162.174.147]) by smtp.hispeed.ch (8.12.6/8.12.6/tornado-1.0) with ESMTP id h6QCPjPG015918 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:25:46 +0200 Message-ID: <3F22734C.6050409@wyona.org> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:25:48 +0200 From: Michael Wechner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030401 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: URI space specification? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: has anyone started yet with a URI space specification, e.g. Entries: ..../year/month/day/entryid/index.html Feed: ...../feedid/index.html etc. ? Thanks Michael From owner-atom-syntax Sat Jul 26 07:50:52 2003 Received: fro