From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Sun Nov 21 21:37:33 1999 To: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS From: Mark Atwood Date: 21 Nov 1999 21:27:51 -0800 Message-ID: Status: O X-Status: With just some thought, this seems either kinda easy, or really hard. From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Sun Nov 21 21:43:27 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:33:40 +0900 From: Woohyong Choi To: Harald@Alvestrand.no Cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] Harald's slides Message-ID: <19991122143340.A75434@cosmos.kaist.ac.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Status: O X-Status: Harald, could you please post the slides you presented during the BOF? It would be a good starting point for this group. Regards, -whchoi From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Sun Nov 21 21:56:07 1999 Message-ID: <3838D82F.F8AD6E35@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:44:15 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Atwood CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Mark Atwood wrote: > With just some thought, this seems either kinda easy, or really hard. i can go into the issues of cos. but lets stay focus. our agenda at the moment is to finalised the working group charter. comments pls. james From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 00:20:45 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:10:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Rick H. Wesson" To: James Seng cc: Mark Atwood , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: should there be anything in the charter about dealing with the human factors of utf8 domain names. I understand that the chineese or any country that uses a kanji might have difficlty learning english, i wonder the impact of the reverse, just how will i learn to compose kanji or any other alphabet to access resources that have utf8 domain names. its just a thought but there are stillo human issues to deal with even if we ignor the politics. -rick On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, James Seng wrote: > Mark Atwood wrote: > > With just some thought, this seems either kinda easy, or really hard. > > i can go into the issues of cos. but lets stay focus. > > our agenda at the moment is to finalised the working group charter. > comments pls. > > james > From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 00:54:38 1999 Message-ID: <38390214.8F767FE6@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:43:00 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rick H. Wesson" CC: Mark Atwood , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick, I am sure there is human and social issues, not to mention the always sensitive political issues. But this is the IETF WG so lets focus on the technical aspect. But you did raised a good point on encoding. We need to add a consideration for localization vs internationalisation encodings. UTF-8 is great but unfortunately, they are not widely used in any countries. Someone at the IETF meeting mention that he never got an email or seen a webpage in UTF-8 yet. -James Seng "Rick H. Wesson" wrote: > should there be anything in the charter about dealing with the human > factors of utf8 domain names. I understand that the chineese or any > country that uses a kanji might have difficlty learning english, i wonder > the impact of the reverse, just how will i learn to compose kanji or any > other alphabet to access resources that have utf8 domain names. > > its just a thought but there are stillo human issues to deal with even if > we ignor the politics. From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 01:29:58 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122074702.037b74e0@dokka.maxware.no> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 07:48:02 +0100 To: Woohyong Choi From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [idn] Harald's slides Cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_206036404==_" Status: O X-Status: --=====================_206036404==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 14:33 22.11.99 +0900, Woohyong Choi wrote: >Harald, could you please post the slides you presented during the BOF? > >It would be a good starting point for this group. OK - here come the slides. 22 KB Zipped PowerPoint - apologies for the proprietary technology :-( Harald --=====================_206036404==_ Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="IDNS questions-2.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IDNS questions-2.zip" UEsDBBQAAAAIAOi6aSdUViOANFcAAAAsAQAUAAAASUROUyBxdWVzdGlvbnMtMi5wcHTsm3dcVMfX 8GfZXWBpS0eRsjTpHSmigPQioAKCDUVYdRUB6dhAoxg0QdDYjdgLmiBoYjQoGjGiogKiYteIitiw V+A5M3d2WTH5ve+Tz/vH83xedz/fW6edM2funJl7p+G82u1Nlbp3UK+fF2Kjrm4ekpW6JgMsF5+o Irjf3Y0PxftSYBnQ/fX3v+Y3wahfRxofoWdH+wpH+q5YIjdgt7K/Hnf4pP499c6iCOb9hgRH1iAv Pq703PU/reVlrrh4sLA7443Hg1sZPvL7C9Y6/F6grVB5FTmdZ8kEagYbKc0v8O87dIix2eb6TZuH bj/oE2X1g0yMqqWx1nDLpjPDRHfSVwXrr27VTnkm3LV/xcfDH5VkbB8snXYj6fCj1tmzurvnlr39 uGz98hUl5oOW/vLTvTy11MpFS+WLFv6msy1IK5A7/mFaneK2S01PivKzhq8Szj68uLNyWN3Lh8+f RZ/SHKdxcaQRX6V6952dnp1Xf5kWf7w21CLrxoG2SsflNwO7WUf+GH827JP2xP3day1eZdybkr9o 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<38390E8B.D099F3B1@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:36:11 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org, idns-list@idns.org Subject: [idn] [Fwd: Charset stuff (Re: DNS SRV for Kerberos)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: O X-Status: fyi -------- Original Message -------- From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Charset stuff (Re: DNS SRV for Kerberos) To: Terry Lambert , "Martin J. Duerst" CC: Paul A Vixie , namedroppers@internic.net This is not terribly relevant to DNS itself, but I like information to be as correct as I can make it..... At 09:55 19.11.99 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: >My personal suggestion on this was that iDNS should use >Unicode data over the wire, with the byte order characters >to indicate, by virtue of the first character's high bit >being set, "here comes Unicode data", and the characters >themselves indicating byte order (Unicode specifies that >Motorolla byte order be used, but Microsoft has largely >ignored this because of Intel-centrism, so we must deal >with it). I believe it is more correct to say that the Unicode consortium never got enough agreement within itself to be draconian about it. More discussion in draft-hoffman-utf16-05.txt. I prefer UTF-8 as a wire encoding; it does not have the byteorder problem, and allows for direct encoding of all Unicode characters (all planes). >ISO 10646 is 32 bits. I rolled the entire upper 32 bits >(the upper 16 which specify the code page, and the lower >16 which you didn't reference) into "code page 0", meaning >all upper 32 bits were 0. Sorry if this wasn't clear. In >practice, everyone ignores the upper 32 bits, since they >have no real technical reason for existing at this time, >only political ones. ISO 10646 is 31 bits :-) 16 bits are not enough - John McCarthy proposed 17 bits in RFC 373, back in 1972...... The following scripts have been provisionally approved for Plane 1: · · Shavian · · Etruscan · · Gothic · · Linear B (· see also the overview for Aegean scripts) · · Cypriot syllabary (· see also the overview for Aegean scripts) The following scripts have been proposed for Plane 1: · Basic Egyptian Hieroglyphics · Meroitic · Old Persian Cuneiform · Ugaritic Cuneiform · Tengwar · Cirth · tlhIngan Hol · Brahmi · Old Permic · Sinaitic · South Arabian · Pollard · Blissymbolics · Soyombo Info from http://www.unicode.org/pending/pending.html Plane 2 is also set aside for "additional ideographic characters", according to http://anubis.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/projects#10646-1 In addition, there are the language tags in Plane 14, which nobody likes, not even the proposers, but they've been approved :-) Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 06:11:11 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:00:29 +0900 From: moto kawasaki To: James Seng Cc: Mark Atwood , ietf-idn@idns.org, "Rick H. Wesson" Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Message-Id: <38394C7D230.6FC8MK056JP@mail.rc4.so-net.ne.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Hi, James, On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:43:00 +0800 James Seng wrote: jseng> I am sure there is human and social issues, not to mention the always jseng> sensitive political issues. But this is the IETF WG so lets focus on the jseng> technical aspect. OK, I agree that we should focus on the technical side, but I, as a committee member of JPNIC, really worry about iDNS or other new coming DNS might raise yet another AlterNIC problem, and also, it might raise discussion from ICANN-DNSO/WIPO regarding the relationship between domain name and intellectual property. If these were cleared, it is rather easy for JPNIC to join iDNS movement, I think. By the way, any other NIC are interested in ietf-idn ? Thanks, Best Regards, moto "EVE" kawasaki -- mk056jp@rc4.so-net.ne.jp From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 06:11:12 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:00:27 +0900 From: moto kawasaki To: James Seng Cc: Mark Atwood , ietf-idn@idns.org, "Rick H. Wesson" Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Message-Id: <38394C7B320.6FC7MK056JP@mail.rc4.so-net.ne.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Hi, all On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:43:00 +0800 James Seng wrote: jseng> But you did raised a good point on encoding. We need to add a consideration jseng> for localization vs internationalisation encodings. UTF-8 is great but Well, from the Internet's point of view, iDNS or other new coming DNS seems required to be "internationalized". But the iDNS users will belong to their mother language cloud, since usually people can only read/write mother tongue, plus English somtimes. In other saying, people will not be internationalized so easily, even if DNS be internationalized. moto "EVE" kawasaki -- mk056jp@rc4.so-net.ne.jp From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 06:12:20 1999 Message-ID: <38394CD3.B291BA93@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:01:55 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Gilmore CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE idns-list@idns.org: Non-member submission from [John Gilmore ]] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Oh yes. I think there is an misunderstanding. idns-list@idns.org is a restricted post list cos of a spamming incident 2 months ago. ietf-idn@idns.org is an open list. Anyway, back to topic. Action Item so far include: 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for I18N of Domain Names and considerations for developing a solution to the problem. 2. An Informational RFC documenting down the various proposal and Implementation of I18N of Domain Names. 3. A Standard RFC defining standard-track protocols and operational requirements for I18N of Domain names. ps: Please take note that we are proposing I18N of Domain Names, not DNS. We are not here to overhaul the DNS system. *argh* The WG should focus as to how internationalised character can be used in domain names. Anyone disagree on this should voice this now. -James Seng John Gilmore wrote: > > > John, you may have to subscribe to the list before you can post to it. Send an > > email to ietf-idn-request@idns.org to subscribe. > > That's OK, I don't want to subscribe. I received the posting on > namedroppers. If the ietf-idn list is uninterested in comments from > the folks on namedroppers and ietf@ietf.org, then why did you CC the > message to those folks? And if it is interested in our comments, why > is it set up as a restrictive list? > > John From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 06:36:59 1999 Message-ID: <38395266.EADF1196@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:25:42 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moto kawasaki CC: ietf-idn@idns.org, idns-list@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Dear Kawasaki-san, Lets take it step by step. We wouldnt go anyway by rushing the issues. IETF WG is the place to discuss the technical issues but the we have a action items to follow. Charter->Requirement->Documentation of various Proposal and so on. I am not saying we should not discuss the political side. But IETF WG is not the place to discuss the political side of it. The more appropriate mailing list for that is the iname@aptld.org mailing list. iName Committee is formed at the APTLD meeting held at ICANN LA meeting. -James Seng moto kawasaki wrote: > OK, I agree that we should focus on the technical side, > but I, as a committee member of JPNIC, really worry about > iDNS or other new coming DNS might raise yet another AlterNIC > problem, and also, it might raise discussion from ICANN-DNSO/WIPO > regarding the relationship between domain name and intellectual > property. > If these were cleared, it is rather easy for JPNIC to join > iDNS movement, I think. > > By the way, any other NIC are interested in ietf-idn ? > > Thanks, > > Best Regards, > > moto "EVE" kawasaki -- mk056jp@rc4.so-net.ne.jp From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 10:21:47 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:11:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Rick H. Wesson" To: James Seng cc: John Gilmore , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE idns-list@idns.org: Non-member submission from [John Gilmore ]] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: can some one let me know how proposing I18N of Domain Names, will not effect I18N of DNS. to me we must first make DNS support I18N names in any part of a FQDN and that whats this WG would be about. how can we only deal witn I18N Domain Names? -rick > ps: Please take note that we are proposing I18N of Domain Names, not DNS. We > are not here to overhaul the DNS system. *argh* The WG should focus as to how From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 11:53:38 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:48:50 +0100 (CET) From: Mats Dufberg To: moto kawasaki cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, moto kawasaki wrote: > By the way, any other NIC are interested in ietf-idn ? NIC-SE is running the SE domain. I guess that any country with a writing system other than, or extending A-Z will meet preasure from the users regarding the limited character set of domains. We are intrerrested in following any work of extending the character set, but that does not mean that we think that any solution is better than no solution. Mats ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mats Dufberg dufberg@nic-se.se NIC-SE +46-8-545 857 06 Box 5774 fax: +46-8-545 857 29 SE-114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se/ From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 11:57:56 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:53:42 +0100 (CET) From: Mats Dufberg To: James Seng cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE idns-list@idns.org: Non-member submission from [John Gilmore ]] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, James Seng wrote: > ps: Please take note that we are proposing I18N of Domain Names, not DNS. We > are not here to overhaul the DNS system. *argh* The WG should focus as to how > internationalised character can be used in domain names. Anyone disagree on > this should voice this now. Could you clearify that distinction? Mats ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mats Dufberg dufberg@nic-se.se NIC-SE +46-8-545 857 06 Box 5774 fax: +46-8-545 857 29 SE-114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se/ From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 12:41:29 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:30:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Rick H. Wesson" To: Mats Dufberg cc: James Seng , ietf-idn@idns.org, bind-workers@isc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE idns-list@idns.org: Non-member submission from [John Gilmore ]] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: I would also like to understand if I18N names would break any resolvers out there. -rick On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Mats Dufberg wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, James Seng wrote: > > > ps: Please take note that we are proposing I18N of Domain Names, not DNS. We > > are not here to overhaul the DNS system. *argh* The WG should focus as to how > > internationalised character can be used in domain names. Anyone disagree on > > this should voice this now. > > Could you clearify that distinction? > > > Mats > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Mats Dufberg dufberg@nic-se.se > NIC-SE +46-8-545 857 06 > Box 5774 fax: +46-8-545 857 29 > SE-114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se/ > > From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Mon Nov 22 18:04:44 1999 Message-ID: <3839F38C.D895930A@pobox.org.sg> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:53:16 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rick H. Wesson" CC: Mats Dufberg , ietf-idn@idns.org, bind-workers@isc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE idns-list@idns.org: Non-member submissionfrom [John Gilmore ]] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Dear all, Ok, first of all, please see the excellent PPT prepared by Herald. (I know. I will have to put it up somewhere on the web. Will do it soon) By defination of RFC1034, all clients & resolvers should be 8-bit clean. Therefore, any RFC1034 compliance resolvers should not break. But of course, not all resolvers does that properly e.g. Redhat (I have a list somewhere) but that is because of broken implementation. The purpose of the working group as we understand it is to find out how I18N of Domain Names can be done technically. We are not here to propose a new DNS system or to overhaul it. As Herald mention, we should see how we can encoded such domain names, how we send them to the wire, how we pick it up, how we match them, etc. And of course other operationals issues. The final standard protocol track may or may not require a change in DNS but we should not start our charter on that presumation. Beside, the DNSEXT WG has agreed to suspend all proposal changes to DNS until they clear their backlogs. I hope this clear things up. ps: I know of at least 2 proposals to the I18N of Domain Names which does not require any changes to the DNS protocol itself, RFC1034 or EDNS0. -James Seng "Rick H. Wesson" wrote: > > I would also like to understand if I18N names would break any resolvers > out there. > > -rick > > On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Mats Dufberg wrote: > > > On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, James Seng wrote: > > > > > ps: Please take note that we are proposing I18N of Domain Names, not DNS. We > > > are not here to overhaul the DNS system. *argh* The WG should focus as to how > > > internationalised character can be used in domain names. Anyone disagree on > > > this should voice this now. > > > > Could you clearify that distinction? > > > > > > Mats > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mats Dufberg dufberg@nic-se.se > > NIC-SE +46-8-545 857 06 > > Box 5774 fax: +46-8-545 857 29 > > SE-114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se/ > > > > From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Tue Nov 23 01:39:13 1999 Message-ID: <383A5E29.B9A859FD@pobox.org.sg> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:28:09 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idns-list@idns.org, ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] Updated Webpage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Hi, Just did a simple webpage to track the process of the working group. See http://www.idns.org/ietf/ It also have the presentations done by Harald, Rob and myself at the Washington D.C meeting. Minutes which is taken by Marc will be there soon. -James Seng From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Tue Nov 23 02:31:26 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123112001.020c8810@dokka.maxware.no> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:22:18 +0100 To: James Seng , moto kawasaki From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [iDNS] Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowing UTF8 in the DNS Cc: ietf-idn@idns.org, idns-list@idns.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Status: O X-Status: At 22:25 22.11.99 +0800, James Seng wrote: >Dear Kawasaki-san, > >Lets take it step by step. We wouldnt go anyway by rushing the issues. >IETF WG is the place to discuss the technical issues but the we have a >action items to follow. Charter->Requirement->Documentation of various >Proposal and so on. > >I am not saying we should not discuss the political side. But IETF WG is not >the place to discuss the political side of it. The more appropriate mailing >list for that is the iname@aptld.org mailing list. iName Committee is formed >at the APTLD meeting held at ICANN LA meeting. Given the need for internationalization to be done in a global way, I'd say that ICANN is the right forum for the political issues, not APTLD. I appreciate a possible lack of enthusiasm for getting involved with ICANN at the moment, but think that one should regard all other fora discussing policy matters as preparing input for an ICANN action/activity. Just my NOK 0.02.... Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Tue Nov 23 06:22:06 1999 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:17:32 +0100 (CET) From: Mats Dufberg To: James Seng cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE idns-list@idns.org: Non-member submissionfrom [John Gilmore ]] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, James Seng wrote: > Ok, first of all, please see the excellent PPT prepared by Herald. > (I know. I will have to put it up somewhere on the web. Will do it soon) I'd like to, but it is in a non-standard format. Could it be convertet to HTML? Mats ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mats Dufberg dufberg@nic-se.se NIC-SE +46-8-545 857 06 Box 5774 fax: +46-8-545 857 29 SE-114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se/ From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Tue Nov 23 08:53:16 1999 Message-ID: <383AC39C.8B9BAD16@pobox.org.sg> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:41:00 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand CC: moto kawasaki , ietf-idn@idns.org, idns-list@idns.org Subject: Re: [iDNS] Re: [idn] So what is hard about "just" allowingUTF8 in the DNS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Very true :-) This may be out of topic in a technical list but I have understand that Pindar has raised the mutlilingual domain name issues at the ICANN board meeting in LA. We shall see what go on since ICANN has finally finished with the mess with NSI. -James Seng Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Given the need for internationalization to be done in a global way, I'd say > that ICANN is the right forum for the political issues, not APTLD. > I appreciate a possible lack of enthusiasm for getting involved with ICANN > at the moment, but think that one should regard all other fora discussing > policy matters as preparing input for an ICANN action/activity. From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Wed Nov 24 14:23:48 1999 Message-ID: <19991124221318.11863.rocketmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:13:18 -0800 (PST) From: Shane Kerr Subject: [idn] IN-ADDR.ARPA To: ietf-idn@idns.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Status: O X-Status: Here's a concern about international DNS from an administrator point of view. Currently, a lot of boxes have logs with the host names of other machines, derived from IN-ADDR.ARPA queries based on the IP of the TCP or UDP originator. I would like to see the ability to have semi-meaningful host names preserved in the future while still being able to use a stinky old ASCII editor to review this information. The iDNS proposal would allow this, but the names would be basically machine-parsable only. Additionally, some MOSTLY meaningful names, like say www.Gießen.de (also expressible as www.Giessen.de), would be expressed as a string of encoded values. I'm not really married to the idea, but I think a bilingual international DNS system may be the right thing to do. That is, hosts would specify both an old-fashioned alphanumeric plus dash host name, as well as a new-fangled iDNS name. Just a thought. Shane Kerr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Wed Nov 24 17:41:44 1999 Message-ID: <383C913B.C2879BE4@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 09:30:35 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Dear all, Last call for WG Charter. Please comment if any there is any more modification. I would like to submit this to Patrik this weekend. -James Seng --- CUT HERE --- Internationalised Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs: James Seng Marc Blanchet Mailing List: ietf-idn@idns.org subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idn.org Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope will be limited to the technical issues not the politics. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for I18N of Domain Names and considerations for developing a solution to the problem. 2. An Informational RFC documenting down the various proposal and Implementation of I18N of Domain Names. 3. A Standard RFC defining standard-track protocols and operational requirements for I18N of Domain names. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the draft Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Wed Nov 24 20:58:16 1999 Message-ID: <383CBAA7.8CC181F9@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:27:19 +0800 From: Tan Tin Wee MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Shane Kerr CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] IN-ADDR.ARPA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: O X-Status: This is what the UTF5 encoding provides, an ability for those who still insist on using ASCII to read multilingual double byte characters. Unfortunately, UTF5 transformation may not lead to a meaningful or even semi-meaningful ASCII host name but at least, you can key in the character string in ASCII. bilingual in the sense that a. it's got an ASCII UTF5 equivalent b. it's got an double byte code that can be displayed through the appropriate viewer in the characters recognisable by the native speaker of the language. In this sense, the iDNS does fulfill this proposed requirement of the Internationalisation of domain names bestrgds Tin Wee Shane Kerr wrote: > > Here's a concern about international DNS from an > administrator point of view. Currently, a lot of > boxes have logs with the host names of other machines, > derived from IN-ADDR.ARPA queries based on the IP of > the TCP or UDP originator. I would like to see the > ability to have semi-meaningful host names preserved > in the future while still being able to use a stinky > old ASCII editor to review this information. > > The iDNS proposal would allow this, but the names > would be basically machine-parsable only. > Additionally, some MOSTLY meaningful names, like say > www.Gießen.de (also expressible as www.Giessen.de), > would be expressed as a string of encoded values. > > I'm not really married to the idea, but I think a > bilingual international DNS system may be the right > thing to do. That is, hosts would specify both an > old-fashioned alphanumeric plus dash host name, as > well as a new-fangled iDNS name. Just a thought. > > Shane Kerr > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Wed Nov 24 21:36:27 1999 Message-ID: <383CC83B.1538135@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:25:15 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] update on idn website Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: hi, 1. JPNIC prepared a presentation for the IETF46 BoF but unfortunately due to time constraint, was never presented. Yoneya-san has kindly forward his presentation and now it is available on the web. 2. HTML'ized version of the PPT is available. Would also appreciate if anyone can convert Rob .mgp presention to html. 3. some corrections to the acknowledgment in my presentation. -James Seng From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Wed Nov 24 22:52:56 1999 Message-ID: <383CDA21.B04B8595@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 14:41:37 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tan Tin Wee , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] update on idn website Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ james Tan Tin Wee wrote: > > what is that website url? > > James Seng wrote: > > > > hi, > > > > 1. JPNIC prepared a presentation for the IETF46 BoF but unfortunately > > due to time constraint, was never presented. Yoneya-san has kindly > > forward his presentation and now it is available on the web. > > > > 2. HTML'ized version of the PPT is available. Would also appreciate if > > anyone can convert Rob .mgp presention to html. > > > > 3. some corrections to the acknowledgment in my presentation. > > > > -James Seng From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 09:53:53 1999 Message-Id: <4.1.19991125122615.06245450@localhost> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:46:18 -0500 To: James Seng , ietf-idn@idns.org From: Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Status: O X-Status: At 08:30 PM 11/24/99 , James Seng wrote: >Dear all, > >Last call for WG Charter. Please comment if any there is any more >modification. I would like to submit this to Patrik this weekend. > >-James Seng > >--- CUT HERE --- >Internationalised Domain Names (idn) >------------------------------------ > >Co-chairs: > James Seng > Marc Blanchet > >Mailing List: > ietf-idn@idns.org > subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idn.org > Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ > >The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements >for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope will be >limited to the technical issues not the politics. > >The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are > >1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for I18N of Domain > Names and considerations for developing a solution to the problem. > Suggestion: 1. An Informational RFC specifying requirements for representation of International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for developing solutions to this problem. Novice person reading the paragraph above will not know what I18N stands for. >2. An Informational RFC documenting down the various proposal and > Implementation of I18N of Domain Names. Suggestion: "Informational RFC or RFC's documenting various proposals for extending DNS to support International character sets. > > >3. A Standard RFC defining standard-track protocols and operational > requirements for I18N of Domain names. It is premature to say this is appropriate for a working group that is chartered to examine requirements. The BOF consensus was that solutions where outside the charter of the proposed WG. IF the requirements documents are clear in what is needed then the technical solution might be straight forward. Eliminate this line!. > >Milestones: > Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document > Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide > May 2000 Second version of the draft > Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call These milestones only apply to work item 1, correct ? Just remember the role of this working group is to focus attention on what the Internationalization (and Localization) requirements for DNS are. Trying to force feed a SINGLE proposal into the standards track is not acceptable. Olafur -------- Olafur Gudmundsson - NAI Labs (443)-259-2389 The Security Research Division of Network Associates, Inc. ogud@tislabs.com Olafur_Gudmundsson@nai.com Private: ogud@acm.org From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 11:02:00 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991125151924.045b4020@dokka.maxware.no> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:34:07 +0100 To: James Seng , ietf-idn@idns.org From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Status: O X-Status: At 09:30 25.11.99 +0800, James Seng wrote: >Dear all, > >Last call for WG Charter. Please comment if any there is any more >modification. I would like to submit this to Patrik this weekend. You could PROPOSE it to Patrik this weekend; involving him in the discussion is a good idea. But it's not finished. >-James Seng > >--- CUT HERE --- >Internationalised Domain Names (idn) >------------------------------------ > >Co-chairs: > James Seng > Marc Blanchet > >Mailing List: > ietf-idn@idns.org > subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idn.org > Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ > >The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements >for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. This is OK, but in conflict with the action items. More later. > The scope will be >limited to the technical issues not the politics. Suggested sentence: The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on other users and administrators of the domain name system. The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. >The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are > >1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for I18N of Domain > Names and considerations for developing a solution to the problem. OK >2. An Informational RFC documenting down the various proposal and > Implementation of I18N of Domain Names. I'd like this to be a bit more precise: 2. An Informational RFC documenting some of the proposals that have been made for internationalization of domain names, and evaluates the technical impact that would result from large scale implementation of these. The evaluation is the most important part of the RFC. This document does not necessarily have to be published, either! >3. A Standard RFC defining standard-track protocols and operational > requirements for I18N of Domain names. This one is where things get dangerous. I'd like to prefix it with a new sentence: "If, after considering the mechanisms for i18n of domain names, and the operational impact of them, the group reaches consensus that there is a single proposal that can be implemented without undue harm to the DNS, the group may agree with the ADs to undertake writing the following document:" >Milestones: > Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document > Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide > May 2000 Second version of the draft > Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Missing quite a few milestones, actually. Suggested additions and changes: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of mechanisms document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirements document (CHANGE) May 2000 Second draft of mechanisms document Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call on requirements and mechanisms Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as Informational Jul 2000 Decision on whether to proceed with standards track document Aug 2000 First draft of standards track document Nov 2000 Last draft of standards track document, WG Last Call Dec 2000 Standards track document sent to IESG for IETF Last Call Mar 2001 RFC published, group closes It's somewhat strange to have the milestones in the charter that can be cancelled if the July 2000 decision goes to "no", but I think it is reasonable to give our best guess at the present moment for these too. Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 11:02:42 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991125153534.045b4a30@dokka.maxware.no> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:36:33 +0100 To: Tan Tin Wee , Shane Kerr From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [idn] IN-ADDR.ARPA Cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Status: O X-Status: At 12:27 25.11.99 +0800, Tan Tin Wee wrote: >This is what the UTF5 encoding provides, >an ability for those who still insist on >using ASCII to read multilingual double byte >characters. Unfortunately, UTF5 transformation >may not lead to a meaningful or even semi-meaningful ASCII host name >but at least, you can key in the character string in ASCII. Rob Austein's tagged name components proposal will also make this possible, in that you can have 2 PTR records, one in ASCII and one in "charset+"; a non-i18n resolver will get only one of these returned. Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 11:44:41 1999 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:35:29 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , James Seng , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Message-ID: <2765930.3152550929@[192.168.111.26]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Status: O X-Status: --On torsdag 25 november 1999 15.34 +0100 Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> Last call for WG Charter. Please comment if any there is any more >> modification. I would like to submit this to Patrik this weekend. > > You could PROPOSE it to Patrik this weekend; involving him in the > discussion is a good idea. But it's not finished. I am watching the discussions and reading all email you all write. My job is to try to see if there is a consensus, part from of course helping to reach the goals various groups have. So, continue discuss the issues! paf From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 15:37:37 1999 Message-ID: <383DC5C0.54E8D21@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:26:56 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olafur Gudmundsson CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Hi Olafur, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > >The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements > >for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope will be > >limited to the technical issues not the politics. > > > >The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are > > > >1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for I18N of Domain > > Names and considerations for developing a solution to the problem. > > > Suggestion: > 1. An Informational RFC specifying requirements for representation of > International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document > should provide guidance for developing solutions to this problem. Noted. Thanks. Will update. > Novice person reading the paragraph above will not know what I18N stands > for. It is already defined above. I believe I18N and L10N is common shorthand. > >2. An Informational RFC documenting down the various proposal and > > Implementation of I18N of Domain Names. > Suggestion: > "Informational RFC or RFC's documenting various proposals for > extending DNS to support International character sets. As I explain before, I18N of Domain Names may or may not require a modification or extension of DNS. Thus, I believe this phrasing may not be appropriate. > >3. A Standard RFC defining standard-track protocols and operational > > requirements for I18N of Domain names. > > It is premature to say this is appropriate for a working group that > is chartered to examine requirements. The BOF consensus was that > solutions where outside the charter of the proposed WG. IF the > requirements documents are clear in what is needed then the > technical solution might be straight forward. Eliminate this line!. The original draft only contains the first 2 Action Item(s). The 3rd was added after a point made by John Gilmore. Please see the mailing list archive http://www.idns.org/archive/ietf-idn.9911 on previous discussions. A > >Milestones: > > Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document > > Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide > > May 2000 Second version of the draft > > Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call > > These milestones only apply to work item 1, correct ? Correct. I need to updated :P I remember the consensus is that the work item 1 is most important. I will add some points about 2. > Just remember the role of this working group is to focus attention on > what the Internationalization (and Localization) requirements for DNS are. > Trying to force feed a SINGLE proposal into the standards track is not > acceptable. -James Seng From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 15:46:45 1999 Message-ID: <383DC7E6.60FAD366@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:36:06 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand CC: Tan Tin Wee , Shane Kerr , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] IN-ADDR.ARPA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Rob Austein's tagged name components proposal will also make this possible, > in that you can have 2 PTR records, one in ASCII and one in "charset+"; a > non-i18n resolver will get only one of these returned. Too early for this but... The question is why should someone be force to have one domain name in ASCII? While I do not deny it is stupid for anyone to use an non-ASCII domain names or hostname only, I think it is only fair if they can choose *not* to have an ASCII domain name or hostname. This is why I do not think a new RR in DNS for I18N is a good idea. I see this as a issue which DNS can solve, ie thru DNAME and CNAME. We should really think along how to put I18N character set into RR and not creating new ones. However, I agreed that Rob's proposal on tagging the label is something we need to consider seriously. In fact, Nakayama-sensei has express that this is what my proposal lacks. -James Seng From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 15:53:25 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:41:15 +0100 (CET) From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand cc: Tan Tin Wee , Shane Kerr , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] IN-ADDR.ARPA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > At 12:27 25.11.99 +0800, Tan Tin Wee wrote: > >This is what the UTF5 encoding provides, > >an ability for those who still insist on > >using ASCII to read multilingual double byte > >characters. Unfortunately, UTF5 transformation > >may not lead to a meaningful or even semi-meaningful ASCII host name > >but at least, you can key in the character string in ASCII. > Rob Austein's tagged name components proposal will also make this possible, > in that you can have 2 PTR records, one in ASCII and one in "charset+"; a > non-i18n resolver will get only one of these returned. Let's also note that if you limit your scope to just being able to enter things like telnet Myi18nhost.... ftp Myi18nhost... and URI's, all you need is a CNAME. A reverse lookup of the A record would just give a PTR to something understandable with old fashioned tools. I.e. IMHO 95% of the problem can be solved with very little effords. And is the main thing to solve: entering a domain name your own way, in your own language and having it telnet, ftp or web-browse to the 'right' place. Dw. From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 17:03:46 1999 To: James Seng cc: Olafur Gudmundsson , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:52:53 -0500 From: Rob Austein Message-Id: <19991126005259Z23049-220+2@thrintun.hactrn.net> Status: O X-Status: Two comments: 1) I concur with Olafur's comment about action item #3. As those who were at the BOF in DC will no doubt recall, I do not believe that we have enough information about the requirements to know whether these internationalization and localization issues should be handled in the DNS or via some other mechanism in some other protocol. So I think that putting stuff in the charter about an intention to do standards-track protocol work is premature. 2) My recollection is that the BOF concluded that idns.org should NOT host the mailing list for this WG. While I am not suggesting that anyone has or intends to behave in any way improperly, I think that it would be in everyone's best interest to find a neutral party to host the list. Eg, a more suspicous mind than mine might find it odd that my presentation of an alternative mechanism is only available at the proposed WG's web page as a block of base64 encoded gzipped text. I happen to believe that this was an honest mistake by someone dealing with an unfamiliar document format, but given that the iDNS proposal already has backing from venture capitalists and given how much fun we've already had with the financial and political aspects of US-ASCII domain names, I'd really rather avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. --Rob From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 17:09:59 1999 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Rob Austein Cc: James Seng , Olafur Gudmundsson , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Message-Id: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:58:57 -0800 Status: O X-Status: i can host stuff on psg.com, aka ops.ietf.org, if it helps anybody. randy From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 20:05:36 1999 Prefer-Language: fr, en Message-Id: <4.2.2.19991125220632.00c67e40@mail.viagenie.qc.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 22:12:20 -0500 To: Rob Austein , James Seng From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Cc: Olafur Gudmundsson , ietf-idn@idns.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: O X-Status: At 19:52 99-11-25 -0500, Rob Austein wrote: >2) My recollection is that the BOF concluded that idns.org should NOT > host the mailing list for this WG. nope. The comment from Patrick and others was to not use idns in the list name. idn-ietf is neutral (it was my suggestion as co-chair). There was no comments (that I've heard of) regarding the hosting. > While I am not suggesting that > anyone has or intends to behave in any way improperly, I think that > it would be in everyone's best interest to find a neutral party to > host the list. I'm really surprised about this comment. What is the problem about hosting a mailing list? Why are we slipping the discussion on where to host a mailing list. I don't follow you. Regards, Marc. > Eg, a more suspicous mind than mine might find it odd that my > presentation of an alternative mechanism is only available at the > proposed WG's web page as a block of base64 encoded gzipped text. > I happen to believe that this was an honest mistake by someone > dealing with an unfamiliar document format, but given that the iDNS > proposal already has backing from venture capitalists and given how > much fun we've already had with the financial and political aspects > of US-ASCII domain names, I'd really rather avoid even the > appearance of a conflict of interest. > >--Rob ----------------------------------------------------------- Marc Blanchet | Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Viagénie inc. | http://www.viagenie.qc.ca 2875 boul. Laurier, suite 300 | tél.: 418-656-9254 Ste-Foy, Québec | fax.: 418-266-5539 Canada, G1V 2M2 | radio: VA2-JAZ ------------------------------------------------------------ Internet Engineering Standards/Normes d'ingénierie Internet http://www.normos.org ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Thu Nov 25 23:54:10 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:44:28 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: Marc Blanchet , Rob Austein , James Seng cc: Olafur Gudmundsson , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Message-ID: <118032.3152594668@dhcp51-p4.swip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Status: O X-Status: --On torsdag 25 november 1999 22.12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > At 19:52 99-11-25 -0500, Rob Austein wrote: > >> 2) My recollection is that the BOF concluded that idns.org should NOT >> host the mailing list for this WG. > > nope. The comment from Patrick and others was to not use idns in the list > name. idn-ietf is neutral (it was my suggestion as co-chair). There was > no comments (that I've heard of) regarding the hosting. idn-ietf@IDNS.org People pointed out that the string idns.org was still used in the domain part of the name. This was at the very end of the meeting, so I am not surprised that different people have different views on how the discussion ended. I just want to point out that the name of the mailing list is clearly still bound to IDNS, due to the domain part of the name. I leave it to this mailing list itself to decide if it has to be moved. I hear one voice that would like to move the list. >> While I am not suggesting that >> anyone has or intends to behave in any way improperly, I think that >> it would be in everyone's best interest to find a neutral party to >> host the list. > > I'm really surprised about this comment. What is the problem about > hosting a mailing list? Why are we slipping the discussion on where to > host a mailing list. I don't follow you. The question is whether the working group can be seen as "neutral" regarding internationalization of domainnames. I.e. a number of proposals (including iDNS) is on the table. What actions do we have to take to see that noone can complain that what is happening is only "rubberstamping" of something done outside of the IETF? I.e. how do we see that we end up with a solution which has the support from the whole IETF? If the mailing list is hosted at idns.org, and the final solution will be exactly what idns.org-people have suggested, what should people belive about the process? I.e. as a member of a wg, and especially as WG/BOF chair or document editor, you have to always listen to the people which point out things like "unfair" treatment, "biased descisions" etc. It doesn't matter what _you_ think, it is what other people think which matters. So, what I always tell wg/bof chairs, "be careful, and listen to people". Patrik From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 00:11:34 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:05:27 +0100 (CET) From: Mats Dufberg To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= cc: Marc Blanchet , Rob Austein , James Seng , Olafur Gudmundsson , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Patrik Fältström wrote: > idn-ietf@IDNS.org > > People pointed out that the string idns.org was still used in the domain > part of the name. This was at the very end of the meeting, so I am not > surprised that different people have different views on how the discussion > ended. > > I just want to point out that the name of the mailing list is clearly still > bound to IDNS, due to the domain part of the name. I leave it to this > mailing list itself to decide if it has to be moved. I hear one voice that > would like to move the list. I hope that this working group will function as an investigation of pros and cons of both the current situations and of any suggested alternative. I hope that it is not closed from the outcome that the conclusion might be that we stick to what we have. Given the tension from the outcome I'd suggest that the group is handled in as neutral environment as possible. That would certainly inlcude hosting mail and web document under a neutral domain. Mats ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mats Dufberg dufberg@nic-se.se NIC-SE +46-8-545 857 06 Box 5774 fax: +46-8-545 857 29 SE-114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se/ From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 01:51:06 1999 Message-ID: <383E5535.5DCE9240@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:39:01 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rob Austein CC: Olafur Gudmundsson , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] [Last Call] Working Group Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Rob Austein wrote: > 1) I concur with Olafur's comment about action item #3. As those who > were at the BOF in DC will no doubt recall, I do not believe that > we have enough information about the requirements to know whether > these internationalization and localization issues should be > handled in the DNS or via some other mechanism in some other > protocol. So I think that putting stuff in the charter about an > intention to do standards-track protocol work is premature. Any more comments on this? I will send a updated Charter without 3 later. > 2) My recollection is that the BOF concluded that idns.org should NOT > host the mailing list for this WG. While I am not suggesting that > anyone has or intends to behave in any way improperly, I think that > it would be in everyone's best interest to find a neutral party to > host the list. Erm, I am perfectly happy for someone else to run the mailing list. So any volunteer? > Eg, a more suspicous mind than mine might find it odd that my > presentation of an alternative mechanism is only available at the > proposed WG's web page as a block of base64 encoded gzipped text. > I happen to believe that this was an honest mistake by someone > dealing with an unfamiliar document format, but given that the iDNS > proposal already has backing from venture capitalists and given how Sorry, but I really do not know how to decipher .mgp file. I put up what was forward to me by Marc. -James Seng From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 01:56:07 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991126072641.02224680@dokka.maxware.no> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:28:57 +0100 To: James Seng From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [idn] IN-ADDR.ARPA Cc: Tan Tin Wee , Shane Kerr , ietf-idn@idns.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Status: O X-Status: At 07:36 26.11.99 +0800, James Seng wrote: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > Rob Austein's tagged name components proposal will also make this possible, > > in that you can have 2 PTR records, one in ASCII and one in "charset+"; a > > non-i18n resolver will get only one of these returned. > >Too early for this but... > >The question is why should someone be force to have one domain name in ASCII? You wouldn't. If you didn't put an ASCII record in, you wouldn't get one back. >This is why I do not think a new RR in DNS for I18N is a good idea. I see this >as a issue which DNS can solve, ie thru DNAME and CNAME. We should really >think along how to put I18N character set into RR and not creating new ones. Rob's proposal isn't an RR - it uses another field, which indicates "label syntax". So it would be applicable to any RR. (No, I hadn't heard of it before his proposal either). (Rob - please explain...) >However, I agreed that Rob's proposal on tagging the label is something we >need to consider seriously. In fact, Nakayama-sensei has express that this is >what my proposal lacks. > >-James Seng -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 02:00:31 1999 Message-ID: <383E5797.E752DDE7@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:49:11 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] Update Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Internationalised Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs: James Seng Marc Blanchet Mailing List: ietf-idn@idns.org subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idns.org Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ (?? Randy pls concur) ietf-idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@ops.ietf.org Archive: http://ops.ietf.org/idn/ The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope will be limited to the technical issues not the politics. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for representation of International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem. 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting down the various proposals and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirement document May 2000 Second version of mechamism document Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as Informational From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 02:01:04 1999 Message-ID: <383E57B9.754D8AD8@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:49:45 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: [idn] Update Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Please concur. Comments pls. Need to send out by Sat. Randy please comfirmed you can host the mailing list and archive. --- CUT HERE --- Internationalised Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs: James Seng Marc Blanchet Mailing List: ietf-idn@idns.org subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idns.org Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ (?? Randy pls concur) ietf-idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@ops.ietf.org Archive: http://ops.ietf.org/idn/ The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope will be limited to the technical issues not the politics. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for representation of International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem. 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting down the various proposals and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirement document May 2000 Second version of mechamism document Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as Informational From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 02:04:41 1999 Message-ID: <38B79882.BBF9C8@pobox.org.sg> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:10:26 +0800 From: Tan Tin Wee MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Seng CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: sounds good enough to me! tin wee James Seng wrote: > > Please concur. Comments pls. Need to send out by Sat. > Randy please comfirmed you can host the mailing list and archive. > > --- CUT HERE --- > Internationalised Domain Names (idn) > ------------------------------------ > > Co-chairs: > James Seng > Marc Blanchet > > Mailing List: > ietf-idn@idns.org > subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idns.org > Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ > > (?? Randy pls concur) > ietf-idn@ops.ietf.org > subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@ops.ietf.org > Archive: http://ops.ietf.org/idn/ > > The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements > for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope will be > limited to the technical issues not the politics. > > The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are > > 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for representation of > International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document > should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem. > > 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting down the various proposals > and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. > > Milestones: > Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document > Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document > Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide > May 2000 Second version of the requirement document > May 2000 Second version of mechamism document > Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call > Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication > as Informational From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 02:27:22 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:16:10 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: James Seng , ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Message-ID: <672703.3152603770@dhcp51-p4.swip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Status: O X-Status: --On fredag 26 november 1999 17.49 +0800 James Seng wrote: > Please concur. Comments pls. Need to send out by Sat. You can have saturday as a goal, but, you should _never_ send any official conclusion before you see that "rough consensus" has been reached. I.e. a deadline is never a replacement for consensus, just a help to achieve it. paf From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 03:00:23 1999 Message-Id: <199911261053.LAA16643@114046.kema.nl> To: James Seng cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:53:42 +0100 From: Jaap Akkerhuis Status: O X-Status: Due to the time difference and different working habbits, most of my comments have been made by others. However, there is one thing in the next sentence I don't like: 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for representation of International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem. The emphasis is too much on ``Character Sets''. I do think the problems is not limited to Character Sets only. There are also other aspects to consider, such as writing order, operational aspect etc. Maybe we should change this is somewhat. jaap From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 03:18:46 1999 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: James Seng Cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Message-Id: Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 03:08:10 -0800 Status: O X-Status: > Mailing List: > ietf-idn@idns.org > subscription requests: ietf-idn-request@idns.org > Archive: http://www.idns.org/ietf/ mailing list : idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests : idn-request@ops.ietf.org archive : ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* harald, could you please add the following RR to ops.ietf.org? @ A 147.28.0.62 thanks. randy From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 06:36:51 1999 Message-ID: <383E9873.4428E62B@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:25:55 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrik =?iso-2022-jp?B?RhskQmdNGyhCdHN0chskQvZtGyhC?= CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Got it. james Patrik F$BgM(Btstr$Böm(B wrote: > > --On fredag 26 november 1999 17.49 +0800 James Seng > wrote: > > > Please concur. Comments pls. Need to send out by Sat. > > You can have saturday as a goal, but, you should _never_ send any official > conclusion before you see that "rough consensus" has been reached. I.e. a > deadline is never a replacement for consensus, just a help to achieve it. > > paf From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 06:51:51 1999 Message-ID: <383E9C09.84AAA707@pobox.org.sg> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:41:13 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jaap Akkerhuis CC: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Ok, lets see. How about this? 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding International characters into DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, taking localised (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues into consideration. -James Seng Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > Due to the time difference and different working habbits, most of > my comments have been made by others. However, there is one thing > in the next sentence I don't like: > > 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for representation of > International Character Sets in DNS names and records. The document > should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem. > > The emphasis is too much on ``Character Sets''. I do think the > problems is not limited to Character Sets only. There are also > other aspects to consider, such as writing order, operational aspect > etc. Maybe we should change this is somewhat. > > jaap From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 08:30:58 1999 Message-Id: <199911261623.RAA18435@114046.kema.nl> To: James Seng cc: ietf-idn@idns.org Subject: Re: [idn] Update Charter Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:23:33 +0100 From: Jaap Akkerhuis Status: O X-Status: Hi James, Ok, lets see. How about this? 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding International characters into DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, taking localised (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues into consideration. Seems fine to me. jaap From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 16:18:37 1999 Message-ID: <383F20E3.B47C130@pobox.org.sg> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:08:03 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org, idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: [idn] Updated Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Comments pls --- CUT HERE --- Internationalized Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Mailing List idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on other users and administrators of the domain name system. The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding International characters into DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, taking localized (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues into consideration. 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting down the various proposal and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirement document May 2000 Second version of mechamism document Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as Informational From owner-ietf-dnsint@idns.org Fri Nov 26 16:18:25 1999 Message-ID: <383F20DA.9BDE6F2E@pobox.org.sg> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:07:54 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-idn@idns.org, idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: [idn] update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Hi, 1. (IMPORTANT) Mailing list has been changed from ietf-idn@idns.org to idn@ops.ietf.org. Subscription at idn-request@ops.ietf.org. All current members has been transfered to this list. For the moment, all mails thru @idns.org will forward to @ops.ietf.org. But please try to use the new list from now on. (Thank Randy and Harald for setting up this list! :-) 2. Rob's presentation in html is available on the webpage. (Thanks Rob!) 3. Updated charter with the latest modification on the webpage. -James Seng From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sun Nov 28 07:55:48 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991128104837.0209fde0@dokka.maxware.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:50:09 +0100 To: James Seng From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [idn] Updated Charter Cc: Woohyong Choi , ietf-idn@idns.org, idn@ops.ietf.org Status: O X-Status: At 10:48 28.11.99 +0800, James Seng wrote: >Dear all, > >Just need a check. Does the evaluation comes as a part of the >Informational RFC(s) or a separate RFC? I think the charter needs to leave it open. In a perfect world, it would be part of the same RFCs, but sometimes people who are best at documenting how a scheme works are strongly resistent to documenting the weaknesses of the proposal. >Will this do? > >2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting down the various proposal > and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. The > document(s) should also provide a technical evaluation of the proposal > by the Working Group. Yes, I think so. Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sun Nov 28 17:59:10 1999 Message-ID: <3841DD9A.C895EB33@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:57:46 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: Testing again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Testing again. Please ignore. From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Tue Nov 30 04:14:46 1999 Message-ID: <3843BF5A.29802DA2@pobox.org.sg> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:13:14 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: [LAST CALL] WG Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Internationalized Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Mailing List idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on other users and administrators of the domain name system. The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding International characters into DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, taking localized (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues into consideration. 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting down the various proposal and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. The document(s) should also provide a technical evaluation of the proposal by the Working Group. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirement document May 2000 Second version of mechamism document Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as Informational From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sat Dec 11 02:31:51 1999 Message-ID: <38522756.BD0412CA@pobox.org.sg> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:28:38 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: WG Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Sorry for the wrong choice of words in the last email. Anyway, here is the charter again. If there is absolutely no more comments, Marc will forward this to Patrik. *cheers* -James Seng --- CUT HERE --- Internationalized Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Mailing List idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on other users and administrators of the domain name system. The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding International characters into DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, taking localized (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues into consideration. 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting the various proposal and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. The document(s) should also provide a technical evaluation of the proposal by the Working Group. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirement document May 2000 Second version of mechamism document Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as Informational From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Tue Dec 14 22:07:24 1999 Message-Id: <199912150606.PAA25266@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:07:18 +0900 To: James Seng From: "Martin J. Duerst" Subject: Re: WG Charter Cc: idn@ops.ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Status: O X-Status: Some very minor wording comments. i may have said that, or at least wanted to say that, earlier: i think that doing requirements,... first is crucial to make this difficult task become a success. At 18:28 1999/12/11 +0800, James Seng wrote: > Sorry for the wrong choice of words in the last email. > > Anyway, here is the charter again. If there is absolutely > no more comments, Marc will forward this to Patrik. > > *cheers* > > -James Seng > > --- CUT HERE --- > Internationalized Domain Names (idn) > ------------------------------------ > > Co-chairs > James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg > Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca > > Mailing List > idn@ops.ietf.org > subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org > ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* > > The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for > supporting internationalized (i18n) domain names. Internationalization of Domain Names (casing as below, i18n is internationalization, not internationalized). > > The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this > and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on > other users and administrators of the domain name system. > > The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should > administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. > > The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are > > 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding > International characters into DNS names and records. The document > should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, > taking localized (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues > into consideration. > > 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting the various proposal proposal -> proposals > and Implementation of Internationalization of Domain Names. The Implementation -> implementations > document(s) should also provide a technical evaluation of the proposal proposal -> proposals > by the Working Group. > > Milestones: > > Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document > Feb 2000 First draft of the mechanisms document 'mechanism' doesn't appear anywhere above. I suggest changing 2 above to 'various proposals for mechanisms' or some such. > Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide > May 2000 Second version of the requirement document > May 2000 Second version of mechamism document mechanism -> mechanisms. > Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call > Jul 2000 Requirements and mechanisms sent to IESG for publication as > Informational Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, World Wide Web Consortium #-#-# mailto:duerst@w3.org http://www.w3.org From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Wed Dec 15 04:32:11 1999 Message-ID: <3857859F.D6E8FEE4@pobox.org.sg> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:12:15 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Martin J. Duerst" CC: idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: "Martin J. Duerst" wrote: > > Some very minor wording comments. > > i may have said that, or at least wanted to say that, > earlier: i think that doing requirements,... first is > crucial to make this difficult task become a success. Thanks for the correct. I agreed that drafting these documents is very important step so as we will not end up in silly argument in the future discussion on why we are doing this or that. Anyway, update on charter. Comments pls. -James Seng --- CUT HERE --- Internationalized Domain Names (idn) ------------------------------------ Co-chairs James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Mailing List idn@ops.ietf.org subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for supporting internationalized domain names. The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on other users and administrators of the domain name system. The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding International characters into DNS names and records. The document should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, taking localized (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues into consideration. 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting the various proposals and Implementations of Internationalization (i18n) of Domain Names. The document(s) should also provide a technical evaluation of the proposals by the Working Group. Milestones: Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document Feb 2000 First draft of the proposal document(s) Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide May 2000 Second version of the requirement document May 2000 Second version of proposal document(s) Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call Jul 2000 Requirements and proposal(s) sent to IESG for publication as Informational From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sat Dec 18 13:34:09 1999 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991218221342.02e29c30@dokka.maxware.no> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:14:10 +0100 To: James Seng , "Martin J. Duerst" From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: WG Charter Cc: idn@ops.ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Status: O X-Status: Ship it. We need to get started on writing down those requirements. Windows 2000 has gone gold. Harald A -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sun Dec 19 06:53:30 1999 Prefer-Language: fr, en Message-Id: <4.2.2.19991219094306.00e4f440@mail.viagenie.qc.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:43:43 -0500 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , James Seng , "Martin J. Duerst" From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: WG Charter Cc: idn@ops.ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: O X-Status: sent to Patrick yesterday for IESG consideration. Hope it will pass. Regards, Marc. At 22:14 99-12-18 +0100, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >Ship it. We need to get started on writing down those requirements. > >Windows 2000 has gone gold. > > Harald A > >-- >Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway >Harald.Alvestrand@edb.maxware.no > ----------------------------------------------------------- Marc Blanchet | Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Viagénie inc. | http://www.viagenie.qc.ca 2875 boul. Laurier, suite 300 | tél.: 418-656-9254 Ste-Foy, Québec | fax.: 418-266-5539 Canada, G1V 2M2 | radio: VA2-JAZ ------------------------------------------------------------ Internet Engineering Standards/Normes d'ingénierie Internet http://www.normos.org ------------------------------------------------------------ From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Mon Dec 20 16:23:10 1999 Message-ID: <385EC779.9684E86C@pobox.org.sg> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:19:05 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idns-list@idns.org, idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: happy holidays Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: just a note to wish everyone here a happy holiday. *cheers* -James Seng From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Mon Dec 27 01:56:21 1999 Message-ID: <38673684.3F640A@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:51:00 +0800 From: James Seng MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yoshiro YONEYA CC: idns-list@idns.org, idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: iDNS WG at APRICOT2000 Seoul Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: Dear Yoneya-san, I believe there would be an joint APTLD-APNG meeting for iDNS* meeting to discuss the the non-profit organisation to look into multilingual domain names at the APRICOT2000 conference at Seoul. The meeting is tentatively comfirmed on 28th Feb 2000 4:30pm to 6:30pm. The organisers for the meeting is Prof Kilnam Chon and Dr Tan Tin Wee. Please contact one of them should you need any more information. I have already informed Prof Goto that APNG iDNS WG will not have a WG meeting at the APNG meeting in the morning, since 1. It will be redundant to have a second meeting in the evening. 2. Technical discussion of the multilingual domain names are best left at the IETF meetings. I have cc: the APNG iDNS WG and the IDN list at IETF. Altho the IDNS* meeting is non-technical in nature, I am sure some people may be interested to participate in the Seoul meeting. Please refer to http://www.apricot2000.ne.kr/ for information on APRICOT2000. Look forward to see anyone interested at APRICOT2000 :-) *cheers* -James Seng >Do you have any information about iDNS or related meeting >will be held in APRICOT2000? From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sun Jan 2 08:06:01 2000 Prefer-Language: fr, en Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000102100806.05dbf840@mail.viagenie.qc.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 10:08:23 -0500 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Fwd: Re: request for formation of the idn wg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: O X-Status: >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:02:56 +0100 >From: Patrik Fältström >To: Marc Blanchet , jseng@pobox.org.sg >cc: Thomas Narten , > Erik Nordmark , Keith Moore , > IESG >Subject: Re: request for formation of the idn wg >X-Mailer: Mulberry (MacOS) [2.0.0b6, s/n U-301169] > >The IESG discussed this wg at todays telechat. The descision was to >proceed this work, with appropriate advisors from Applications Area, in >the Internet Area instead of Applications Area. > >This proposed wg, which will be followed by many people including myself, >will from now on be taken cared of by the Internet Area through Erik and >Thomas. > > Regards, Patrik > >--On 99-12-17 18.36 -0500, Marc Blanchet wrote: > >>Patrick, >> after the IETF bof in Washington, a mailing list has been setup to >> discuss about the charter of the idn working group. We, co-chairs, >> think that the people of the mailing list reach the concensus on the >> charter (included in this email). The last revisions of the >> charter sent >> to the mailing list had no remaining issues. We would like to >> request >> the IESG to approve the formation of this new working group >> called idn. >> >>Marc Blanchet and James Seng, co-chair >> >>========================================================================= >>=== >> >>Internationalized Domain Names (idn) >>------------------------------------ >> >>Co-chairs >> James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg >> Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca >> >>Mailing List >> idn@ops.ietf.org >> subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org >> ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* >> >>The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for >>supporting internationalized domain names. >> >>The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this >>and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on >>other users and administrators of the domain name system. >> >>The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should >>administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. >> >>The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are >> >> 1. An Informational RFC specifying the requirements for encoding >> International characters into DNS names and records. The document >> should provide guidance for development solutions to this problem, >> taking localized (e.g. writing order) and related operational issues >> into consideration. >> >> 2. An Informational RFC or RFC's documenting the various proposals >> and Implementations of Internationalization (i18n) of Domain Names. >> The document(s) should also provide a technical evaluation of the >> proposals by the Working Group. >> >>Milestones: >> >> Jan 2000 First draft of the requirements document >> Feb 2000 First draft of the proposal document(s) >> Mar 2000 Presentation and discussion at IETF-Adelaide >> May 2000 Second version of the requirement document >> May 2000 Second version of proposal document(s) >> Jun 2000 IETF presentation and wg last call >> Jul 2000 Requirements and proposal(s) sent to IESG for publication >> as Informational >> >> >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------- >>Marc Blanchet | Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca >>Viagénie inc. | http://www.viagenie.qc.ca >>2875 boul. Laurier, suite 300 | tél.: 418-656-9254 >>Ste-Foy, Québec | fax.: 418-266-5539 >>Canada, G1V 2M2 | radio: VA2-JAZ >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>Internet Engineering Standards/Normes d'ingénierie Internet >> http://www.normos.org >>------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Marc Blanchet | Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca Viagénie inc. | http://www.viagenie.qc.ca 2875 boul. Laurier, suite 300 | tél.: 418-656-9254 Ste-Foy, Québec | fax.: 418-266-5539 Canada, G1V 2M2 | radio: VA2-JAZ ------------------------------------------------------------ Internet Engineering Standards/Normes d'ingénierie Internet http://www.normos.org ------------------------------------------------------------ From ops.ietf.org!owner-idn Sun Jan 2 23:37:35 2000 Prefer-Language: fr, en Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000103022653.06243d20@mail.viagenie.qc.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 02:28:03 -0500 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Fwd: Re: request for formation of the idn wg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: O X-Status: we should soon see an official announcement from the iesg secretariat about the new wg formed. now is the time to work on the requirement draft. Regards, Marc. >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:02:56 +0100 >From: Patrik Fältström >To: Marc Blanchet , jseng@pobox.org.sg >cc: Thomas Narten , > Erik Nordmark , Keith Moore , > IESG >Subject: Re: request for formation of the idn wg >X-Mailer: Mulberry (MacOS) [2.0.0b6, s/n U-301169] > >The IESG discussed this wg at todays telechat. The descision was to >proceed this work, with appropriate advisors from Applications Area, in >the Internet Area instead of Applications Area. > >This proposed wg, which will be followed by many people including myself, >will from now on be taken cared of by the Internet Area through Erik and >Thomas. > > Regards, Patrik > >--On 99-12-17 18.36 -0500, Marc Blanchet wrote: > >>Patrick, >> after the IETF bof in Washington, a mailing list has been setup to >> discuss about the charter of the idn working group. We, co-chairs, >> think that the people of the mailing list reach the concensus on the >> charter (included in this email). The last revisions of the >> charter sent >> to the mailing list had no remaining issues. We would like to >> request >> the IESG to approve the formation of this new working group >> called idn. >> >>Marc Blanchet and James Seng, co-chair >> >>========================================================================= >>=== >> >>Internationalized Domain Names (idn) >>------------------------------------ >> >>Co-chairs >> James Seng jseng@pobox.org.sg >> Marc Blanchet Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca >> >>Mailing List >> idn@ops.ietf.org >> subscription requests: idn-request@ops.ietf.org >> ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn* >> >>The goal of the group is to investigate and specify the requirements for >>supporting internationalized domain names. >> >>The scope of the group is to investigate the possible means of doing this >>and what technical impact they will have on the users of such names and on >>other users and administrators of the domain name system. >> >>The group will not address the question of what, if any, body should >>administer or control usage of names that use this functionality. >> >>The Action Item(s) for the Working Group are >> >> 1. An Info