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RE: Timestamping
I think you need to remember the distinction between application and mail
delivery. The EDI transaction that indicates processing of the
transaction (I can't remember the no.) would provide this level of
detail. The mail delivery time stamp is important too. take care, Joanne
Ghahremani.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rik Drummond [SMTP:drummond@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 3:34 PM
To: 'Werner, James K'; ietf-ediint@xxxxxxx; 'chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: Timestamping
Good point! So do we need other time stamps than submission?..... And if
so
what types do we need?
Submissions, Delivery, etc?..........
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner, James K [SMTP:James.Werner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 1:55 PM
To: ietf-ediint@xxxxxxx; 'chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: Timestamping
I'm not convinced that the delivery timestamp is adequate for the
"majority of users". The delivery timestamp does not imply anything
beyond delivery. If one is only interested in 'pushing' information,
then perhaps delivery is the only meaningful event. If one is
interested in assuring a meaningful and acceptable response to the
pushed information then there are other events of interest. I think
many companies (the most likely users of EDI over the Internet) would
want to know things like when the transaction was processed by or at the
least, handed off to the end application.
Speaking from the production support perspcetive of a company that
receives orders, a delivery is only one of several events that may
require tracking.
James K. Werner
The Boeing Company
PO Box 3707, #MS 6C-FH
Seattle, Wa. 98124-2207
phone: (425)237-6274 fax: (425)237-8510
email: james.werner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> ----------
> From: chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[SMTP:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 10:25 AM
> To: ietf-ediint@xxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Timestamping
>
> Hold on a minute, am I missing something here?
>
> I completely agree that having a timestamp is very important, but
> ALL email already has a Date: field in the RFC822 header which IMHO
> would be acceptable for most (non-critical) purposes.
>
> For critical applications, such as Pete Yeatrakas' financial one,
> the important point is that the timestamp cannot be forged or
> tampered with and so becomes the instrument of Rik Drummonds'
> "non-repudiation of submission".
>
> To achieve this the timestamp must come from a trusted source,
> a Time Stamping Authority (TSA) that will sign/encrypt the
> TimeStampToken (TST). I've just read the PKIX draft :-).
> The TST can be included as (yet another) MIME object within the
> overall EDIINT message.
>
> My point is that to make the inclusion of TST's mandatory would
> add a whole extra layer of complexity to sending an EDIINT message
> which would be unnecessary for the majority of users.
>
> By all means include a reference to the PKIX work and show
> how a TST could be included within an EDIINT message, but please
> don't make it mandatory. I don't think the EDIINT group need
> do more than that. Am I wrong?
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris.
>
> >
> >>From my point of view (non technical), it is just a sound business
> >(best) practice, especially if there are any disagreements between
> >trading partners. In the Automated Clearing House, the financial
> >community depends on something called settlement date (contained in
> the
> >file format), which while 24 hours long, is the key to when funds are
> >transfered, the key to the deadlines for submitting adjustments, and
> >tied to the obligations of the FI to it's customer, whether consumer
> or
> >corporate. That date is MANDATORY, and similar to Marc's ABSOLUTE
> >notion. Financial institutions repackage EDI information along with
> the
> >funds transfer, so you can see that in the ACH world, the notion of
> >timestamping is absolutely critical.
> >Best regards,
> >Pete Yeatrakas
> >
> >Rik Drummond wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Marc...... I assume the reason for time-stamping is
> "non-repudiation of submission" and ot
> >>
> >> Regards, Rik
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Marc Blanchet [SMTP:Marc.Blanchet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 5:21 PM
> >> To: Rik Drummond; 'Werner, James K'; 'ietf-ediint@xxxxxxx'
> >> Subject: Timestamping
> >>
> >> In the PKIX group, there is a draft on time stamping.
> >>
> (ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pkix-ipki5tsp-00.txt)
> >> I was involved in the early work on it. This draft can give at
> least some
> >> thoughts. I would be interested in participating in the effort.
> >>
> >> Regards, Marc.
> >>
> >> >Then get involved and make it happen. How do you see this
> happening? What
> >> would the process be and who would be involved?
> >> >
> >> >Regards, Rik
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Werner, James K [SMTP:James.Werner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> >Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 1:25 PM
> >> >To: 'ietf-ediint@xxxxxxx'
> >> >Subject: RE: EDIINT WG Minutes fo the IETF Dec 98 Meeting
> >> >
> >> >imho, the "possible" need to timestamp EDI "transactions" is a
> complete
> >> >misstatement: timestamping is an *absolute* repeat *ABSOLUTE*
> (volume
> >> >added for emphasis) requirment - no waffling, no qualifications,
> no
> >> >'divide and conquer' strategies - timestamping is a must!.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >James K. Werner
> >> >The Boeing Company
> >> >PO Box 3707, #MS 6C-FH
> >> >Seattle, Wa. 98124-2207
> >> >phone: (425)237-6274 fax: (425)237-8510
> >> >email: james.werner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------
> >> Marc Blanchet | Marc.Blanchet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Viagenie inc. | http://www.viagenie.qc.ca
> >> 3107 des hotels | tel.: 418-656-9254
> >> Ste-Foy, Quebec | fax.: 418-656-0183
> >> Canada, G1W 4W5 | radio: VA2-JAZ
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> pgp: 57 86 A6 83 D3 A8 58 32 F7 0A BB BD 5F B2 4B A7
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Auteur du livre TCP/IP Simplifie, Editions Logiques, 1997
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> --
> Chris Davenport chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Davros Computer Systems
>