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Re: draft-ietf-ltans-dssc-00 comments




Herr Kunz - allow me to expand and provide some links backing up what I am saying here. More inline below -

[ By the way - although these rules are specific to US Courts, through the MRA's (Mutual Recognition Agreement's) and the Legal Metrological Agreement's between our Countries these are important factors to at least review in the design of anything that will be used to contain long-term legally-provable instances of anything, no matter what Jurisdiction they are operated in or pursuant to the rules of...]

----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Kunz" <thomas.kunz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "todd glassey" <tglassey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <ietf-ltans@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ltans-dssc-00 comments


todd glassey schrieb:


That is a decision controlled by the Hosting Entity's Operations Policies and needs to be retained as such. The answer is that both methods should work IMHO.

With "Hosting Entity" do you mean the publisher of a policy?

Yes although that policy may be layered on other local policies and/or controls as well.


> For policy brevity,

which IS NOT a good thing here... Policy is what allows NEA to be used in a number of different scenario's

Unfortunately, we are not familiar with the abbreviations you use (NEA, MRA, FRE). So would you please give some explanations? Thanks.

NEA is the IETF NEA proposed protocol - a toolset for preqwualifing and continuously qualifying a node or infrastructure for 'permission to operate' within a network at some defined level of Entitlement.

MRA is a term meaning 'Mutual Recognition Agreements' - these are treaties and other agreement's like the "Legal Metrological Agreement's" which create the ability to internationally timestamp digital content. Here for example is a MRA between the US and Iceland which also notices conformity with EFTA and EEA entity rules as well. http://ts.nist.gov/Standards/Global/upload/US-EEA_EFTA_States_MRA_Oct_17_051.pdf - the point is that there a MANY of these which constrain the operations of international commerce - something that LTANS needs to facilitate the enduring proof of.

FRE is the US Federal Rules of Evidence - which constrain how content is qualified as evidence for the US District and Circuit Courts. http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/



Nope... I dont think this has anything to do with "law cases". I think it has to do with logging and assurance models and that's about it. What's missing is to qualify NEA under the new Judge Grimm ruling so that NEA based testimnoy ius admissible into the US and Foreign Court's that support similar standards or MRA's.

You want to know what is missing here?

a.. Relevance; i.e. meets F.R.E. 401

<snip>

Also at this point, some further explanations would be nice and helpful for understanding.

On May 4th 2007 a US Federal Court Judge (Chief Magistrate Judge Paul W. Grimm) from the Maryland District Courts issued what many are referring to as a landmark ruling in a key case called Lorraine v Markel, and as to what that case has to do with the IETF's LTANS group, it set the standard under the US Federal Rules of Evidence for what ESI (Electronically Stored Information) MUST comply with in order to be admissible in a US Court. See our link at www.wireless-time.com/site/news/news-judicial1.htm for links to the Judges ruling itself.

Poof - instant hurdle for anything that would create or maintain digital content for legal review.

The scope of this ruling is just now being understood because a number of us have actually broken the interacting laws down through flowcharting and process mapping to make a mechanical determination of the scope of this ruling. http://www.ediscoverylaw.com/2007/05/articles/case-summaries/chief-us-magistrate-judge-grimm-provides-detailed-analysis-of-evidentiary-issues-associated-with-electronic-evidence/

That scope not only includes any and all information which civilians may bring before the Court but also to any ESI which a US Attorney may come to bring before the Federal Court's as evidence of something. That means any document which is formally filed with the US Government by ANYONE is constrained under this since it is the Courts, which under the Constritutions Articles and in particular, US Code's Title 5, provides relief from Executive and certain DoD Branch actions as well as Lower Court rulings.

So Judge Grimm's District Court (DC) ruling actually effects the use of LTANS technology in the US directly but it also forces that same recognition by any "Foreign Entity which is tied to the US through Mutual Recognition Agreement's for time and other legal standards"... and yes this ruling invalidates a number of the components and idea behind RFC3161 as well as the ETSI's time stamping directive which violates those MRAs directly andIMHO International Law as such.

As to why he could do this - Judge Grimm is one of the US Court Systems strongest proponents of rules for digital content. He is a very noted Judge who's role as the Chief Magistrate Judge for his district gives him exactly this ability.

http://www.msa.md.gov/msa/mdmanual/39fed/04usmag/html/msa13723.html

http://www.thesedonaconference.org/people/profiles/GrimmPaul


Todd