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Re: ERS - using hash tree?



On Nov 22, 2007 7:27 PM, Tobias Gondrom <tgondrom@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hello Jesus,
>
> 1.
> > Then, what is the meaning of building the hash tree if you really
> > after of building it you canīt add or remove any data object?.
>
> Yes, after you completed the hashtree and protect it with a timestamp you can not add further nodes. (Comment: Typical ERS-systems build one hashtree per day for all documents that were archived during that day and sign the hashtree every evening with a timestamp.)

Then, if I want to preserve some documents in the same day, for
example 3, and to archive them during differents periods of time, the
first one (d1) until 01-12-07, the second (d2) until 15-12-07 and the
last one (d3) until 01-01-08 for example and I send independently to
the TAS server.

How have they been manage?
What evidences are the TAS server archiving?
Has the TAS server to built 2 evidences? (first to preserve each
document separately (Fig 1))

 		        -----                    ------        	             ------
                       | d1 |           	| d2 |         	           |
d3 |
                       ------                    ------        	
      ------
                          |                	   |
    |
                          |                        |
        |
                       ------         	         -------       	
    ------
                       | h1 |        	        | h2 |   	         | h3 |
                       ------                    -----       	
   ------
		          |                         |         	               |
                 ----------------          -------------------
---------------------
               | TS(01-12-07) |      |  TS(15-12-07 |     | TS(01-01-08) |
                ------------------         -------------------
--------------------
                                         Fig 1

and after that a second evidence to include them in the evening
hash-tree (Fig 2)?
Suppose another user, send during the same day the document
"anotherd4". In the same day only were sent d1,d2,d3 and anotherd4.

      		        ------          ------          ------          ---------------
                       | d1 |        | d2 |          | d3 |         |
anotherd4 |
                       ------          ------          ------
----------------
                          |                |               |               |
                          |                |               |               |
                       ------          ------          ------          ------
                       | h1 |        | h2 |          | h3 |         | h4 |
                       ------          ------          ------          ------
                           |               |              |                |
                                |       |                      |      |
                                   |                              |
                               --------                        ------
                               | h12 |                      | h34 |
                               --------                        ------
                                   |                              |
                                         |                 |
                                                   |
                                               -----------
                                               | h1234 |
                                               -----------
                                                    |
                                               --------------
                                               | TSh1234 |
                                               --------------
		 	    Fig 2


And what is the evening's timestamp during?


Another doubt: But then can I send a group of documents to preserving
and preserve it independently all other (Fig 3), (without including
them in the evening hash-tree)?
Can I decide what groups of documents form the evening-hash-tree? Can
the TAS server archive "little" hash-trees, like folders and in every
folder contains the hash tree of a group of documents?

                   ------          ------               |
                  | d1 |        | d2 |         	      |
                   ------          ------          	|
                     |                |                 |
  And, in this side
                     |                |                 |
 the evenging hash tree
                   ------          ------               |
                   | h1 |        | h2 |               |
                   ------          ------               |
                      |               |                 |
                         |       |                      |
                            |                           |
                        --------                        |
                       | h12 |                        |
                        --------                       |
                          |                            |
                          |                            |
		      ------------                     |
		     |  TS12    |                   |
	              ------------


I try to explain the best I can..

Thanks Tobias


>
>
> 2. Arity (number of branches at each node) of the hashtree:
> Actually the arity of the hash tree is not restricted by the ERS standard and can be decided by the implementer.
> Several performance and efficiency tests I have seen, have shown that typically a tertiary (or binary) hashtree offers the highest efficiency and performance when handling larger numbers of documents.
>
> E.g. hashtree for about 2000 documents
> With tertiary:
> 2187 nodes on the lowest level
> 729 nodes on 2nd level
> 243 nodes on 3rd level
> 81 nodes on 4th level
> 27 nodes on 5th level
> 9 nodes on 6th level
> 3 nodes on 7th level
> And the timestamp at the top.
>
> That way the reduced ERS for one specific document is a lot smaller as it does not need to contain all 2000 nodes of all neighbours, but a lot less.
>
> Plus other operational parameters have also been more efficient.
> (Typically I would recommend a tertiary tree.)
>
> But if you like you can also use a tree with arity n, e.g. n=1000 or n=1.000.000.
>
> Hope this helps, Tobias
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ietf-ltans@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Jesus Maria Mendez Perez
> > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:48 PM
> > To: ietf-ltans@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: ERS - using hash tree?
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Iīm Jesus and I donīt understand some aspects about using the
> > hash-tree to preserving data objects.
> >
> > According to ERS if you have 4 data objects the working will be the next
> > one:
> >
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                       | d1 |        | d2 |          | d3 |         | d4 |
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                          |                |               |               |
> >                          |                |               |               |
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                       | h1 |        | h2 |          | h3 |         | h4 |
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                           |               |              |                |
> >                                |       |                      |      |
> >                                   |                              |
> >                               --------                        ------
> >                               | h12 |                      | h34 |
> >                               --------                        ------
> >                                   |                              |
> >                                         |                 |
> >                                                   |
> >                                               -----------
> >                                               | h1234 |
> >                                               -----------
> >                                                    |
> >                                               --------------
> >                                               | TSh1234 |
> >                                               --------------
> >
> > where "d" are the data objects and "h" are the hash of the data
> > objects and "TS" is the timestamp.
> >
> > In this case youīll have to do 7 hashes and the additional timestamping.
> >
> > Then, what is the meaning of building the hash tree if you really
> > after of building it you canīt add or remove any data object?.
> >
> > You can simply add the 4 hashes of the 4 data objects and do the finish
> > hash.
> > Then weīll have to do 5 hashes and the additonal timestamping versus 7
> > hashes we had before.
> >
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                       | d1 |        | d2 |         | d3 |         | d4 |
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                          |                |               |               |
> >                          |                |               |               |
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                       | h1 |   +   | h2 |   +    | h3 |   +     | h4 |
> >                       ------          ------          ------          ---
> > ---
> >                              |           |               |              |
> >                                   |        |            |           |
> >                                       |       |       |         |
> >                                       -------------------------
> >                                       |       h1234         |
> >                                       -------------------------
> >                                                   |
> >                                       ----------------------------
> >                                       |        TSh1234      |
> >                                       ---------------------------
> >
> > I dont know if we could do it this last way or if i donīt understand
> > the processing of Generation and Verification at all..
> >
> > Thanks.
>
>