From owner-ietf-mxcomp Thu Jan 29 11:05:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0TJ5ZiG039452; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i0TJ5Z5Q039451; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dedicated60-bos.wh.sprintip.net (smtp.sprintpcs.com [63.167.114.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0TJ5Xba039427 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from solidmatrix.com (000-389-336.area3.spcsdns.net [68.29.234.239]) by dedicated60-bos.wh.sprintip.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPA id <0HS900GMZMAZ0G@dedicated60-bos.wh.sprintip.net> for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:04:18 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:04:07 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Subject: Reading list To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Message-id: <40195927.6090306@solidmatrix.com> Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Here is a reading list of some relevant materials for the BOF: 0. Copy of the agenda (probably will be updated): https://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/asrg/current/msg09082.html 1. LMAP Discussion document - goes through concept itself and some of the issues surrounding storing MTA authorization records in DNS. It is currently being heavily edited and will be submited as an ID before the cut-off date. http://asrg.kavi.com/apps/group_public/download.php/18/draft-irtf-asrg-lmap-discussion-00.txt 2. RMX proposal - this proposal was published back in March of 2003. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-danisch-dns-rr-smtp-03.txt 3. DMP proposal - this proposal was published in the early summer of 2003. It also incorporated the DRIP proposal for HELO checking. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fecyk-dsprotocol-04.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-brand-drip-02.txt 4. SPF proposal - this is the most active currently and incorporates the other two. The author is currently working on a draft to be submitted as an Internet Draft. http://spf.pobox.com/ http://spf.pobox.com/draft-mengwong-spf-02.9.4.txt http://spf.pobox.com/draft-mengwong-spf-02.9.5.txt http://archives.listbox.com/spf-discuss@v2.listbox.com/ 5. Mike Rubel's discussion document - this page discusses some of the issues that have to do with these type of proposals http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rmx_records/ 6. Older drafts - some of the older Internet drafts, published and unpublished, that show some of the early ideas. The earliest one is by Paul Vixie, who claims that the idea originated with Jim Miller back in 1998. http://asrg.sp.am/about/old_site/draft-vixie-repudiating-mail-from.txt http://nospam.couchpotato.net/ 7. MTA MARK - a related proposal that wants to mark IPs in reverse DNS as "MTA" or "non-MTA". This has not been submitted as an ID, we have been trying to get in touch with the author. http://asrg.kavi.com/apps/group_public/download.php/26/draft-irtf-asrg-mtamark-00.txt 8. Some other related proposals with similar ideas: http://www.potaroo.net/ietf/old-ids/draft-haas-smtp-check-mail-00.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-laforet-deasey-imxrecords-00.txt There is also a wealth of information in the ASRG list archives, but due to the large size of the archive, it might not be realistic for anyone without sufficient time to plow through everything. For the people who want to do it anyway, list info is here: http://asrg.sp.am/about/lists.shtml Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" (Jon Postel) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Thu Jan 29 22:34:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0U6YOKZ081323; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 22:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i0U6YOwB081322; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 22:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0U6YMQ5081247 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 22:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jan 2004 07:35:01 +0100 Received: from xbe-ams-312.cisco.com (xbe-ams-312.cisco.com [144.254.228.202]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i0U6XoeJ025843; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:33:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-312.cisco.com ([144.254.228.205]) by xbe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:34:11 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:26:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <40195927.6090306@solidmatrix.com> References: <40195927.6090306@solidmatrix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2DC4D732-52ED-11D8-8D05-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Reading list Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:26:03 +0100 To: Yakov Shafranovich X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2004 06:26:04.0287 (UTC) FILETIME=[EFEA70F0:01C3E6F9] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Documents should be internet-drafts for the BOF, especially if the name looks like an I-D. Can you make sure this happens? paf On 2004-01-29, at 20.04, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > > Here is a reading list of some relevant materials for the BOF: > > 0. Copy of the agenda (probably will be updated): > https://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/asrg/current/ > msg09082.html > > 1. LMAP Discussion document - goes through concept itself and some of > the issues surrounding storing MTA authorization records in DNS. It is > currently being heavily edited and will be submited as an ID before > the cut-off date. > http://asrg.kavi.com/apps/group_public/download.php/18/draft-irtf- > asrg-lmap-discussion-00.txt > > 2. RMX proposal - this proposal was published back in March of 2003. > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-danisch-dns-rr-smtp-03.txt > > 3. DMP proposal - this proposal was published in the early summer of > 2003. It also incorporated the DRIP proposal for HELO checking. > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fecyk-dsprotocol-04.txt > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-brand-drip-02.txt > > 4. SPF proposal - this is the most active currently and incorporates > the other two. The author is currently working on a draft to be > submitted as an Internet Draft. > http://spf.pobox.com/ > http://spf.pobox.com/draft-mengwong-spf-02.9.4.txt > http://spf.pobox.com/draft-mengwong-spf-02.9.5.txt > http://archives.listbox.com/spf-discuss@v2.listbox.com/ > > 5. Mike Rubel's discussion document - this page discusses some of the > issues that have to do with these type of proposals > http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rmx_records/ > > 6. Older drafts - some of the older Internet drafts, published and > unpublished, that show some of the early ideas. The earliest one is by > Paul Vixie, who claims that the idea originated with Jim Miller back > in 1998. > http://asrg.sp.am/about/old_site/draft-vixie-repudiating-mail-from.txt > http://nospam.couchpotato.net/ > > 7. MTA MARK - a related proposal that wants to mark IPs in reverse DNS > as "MTA" or "non-MTA". This has not been submitted as an ID, we have > been trying to get in touch with the author. > http://asrg.kavi.com/apps/group_public/download.php/26/draft-irtf- > asrg-mtamark-00.txt > > 8. Some other related proposals with similar ideas: > http://www.potaroo.net/ietf/old-ids/draft-haas-smtp-check-mail-00.txt > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-laforet-deasey-imxrecords > -00.txt > > There is also a wealth of information in the ASRG list archives, but > due to the large size of the archive, it might not be realistic for > anyone without sufficient time to plow through everything. For the > people who want to do it anyway, list info is here: > > http://asrg.sp.am/about/lists.shtml > > Yakov > > ------- > Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org > SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com > "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" > (Jon Postel) > ------- > From owner-ietf-mxcomp Fri Jan 30 10:59:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0UIxaDt013112; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:59:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i0UIxa1i013111; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:59:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dedicated59-bos.wh.sprintip.net (smtp.sprintpcs.com [63.167.114.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0UIxYPh013097 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from solidmatrix.com (000-362-127.area3.spcsdns.net [68.29.129.15]) by dedicated59-bos.wh.sprintip.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPA id <0HSB00C4PGR0DL@dedicated59-bos.wh.sprintip.net> for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:59:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:59:22 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Subject: Re: Reading list In-reply-to: <2DC4D732-52ED-11D8-8D05-000A959CF516@cisco.com> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Message-id: <401AA98A.7000501@solidmatrix.com> Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime References: <40195927.6090306@solidmatrix.com> <2DC4D732-52ED-11D8-8D05-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Patrik Fältström wrote: > > Documents should be internet-drafts for the BOF, especially if the name > looks like an I-D. > Ok, then the current related IDs are: draft-danisch-dns-rr-smtp-03.txt draft-fecyk-dsprotocol-04.txt draft-brand-drip-02.txt > Can you make sure this happens? > Yes, two more IDs should be on their way pretty soon. Thanks for pointing this out. Yakov From owner-ietf-mxcomp Fri Jan 30 14:35:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0UMZ9aD026896; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:35:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i0UMZ99A026895; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:35:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0UMZ7bb026885 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:35:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jan 2004 23:35:41 +0100 Received: from xbe-ams-312.cisco.com (xbe-ams-312.cisco.com [144.254.228.202]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i0UMYbnu004976; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:34:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by xbe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:34:59 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:34:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <401AA98A.7000501@solidmatrix.com> References: <40195927.6090306@solidmatrix.com> <2DC4D732-52ED-11D8-8D05-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <401AA98A.7000501@solidmatrix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <8A094EF6-5374-11D8-8D05-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Reading list Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:35:00 +0100 To: Yakov Shafranovich X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2004 22:34:59.0172 (UTC) FILETIME=[4B01EA40:01C3E781] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i0UMZ8bb026890 Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 2004-01-30, at 19.59, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > Patrik Fältström wrote: >> >> Documents should be internet-drafts for the BOF, especially if the >> name looks like an I-D. >> > > Ok, then the current related IDs are: > > draft-danisch-dns-rr-smtp-03.txt > draft-fecyk-dsprotocol-04.txt > draft-brand-drip-02.txt > >> Can you make sure this happens? >> > > Yes, two more IDs should be on their way pretty soon. Thanks for > pointing this out. Perfect, thank you very much! paf From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 1 17:41:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i121f4dr073726; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i121f4Se073725; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:41:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from gctc-sbs2000.gctc-mst.com (a-54-128-biz2.mts.net [209.202.54.128]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i121f2is073715 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) Subject: (take 2) draft-fecyk-dmp-01.txt Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:40:59 -0600 Message-ID: <05D35E1950E75B4C83E25A4BA890D027568FD0@gctc-sbs2000.gctc-mst.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: (take 2) draft-fecyk-dmp-01.txt X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 thread-index: AcPpLZwY+8FHPWK7QHqPt34MD9YRjA== Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message From: "Gordon Fecyk - Pan-Am" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i121f3is073720 Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I subscribed but for some reason my first post didn't get through. And my last one won't go through because my from line was incorrect. draft-fecyk-dsprotocol-04 was mentioned in the archive of this list. That draft was obsoleted some time ago by draft-fecyk-dmp-01.txt. -- PGP key (0x0AFA039E): What's a PGP Key? See GOD BLESS AMER, er, THE INTERNET. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Wed Feb 4 14:30:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i14MUDmv083719; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:30:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i14MUDrr083718; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:30:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from srv1.fecyk.ca (srv1.fecyk.ca [206.45.235.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with SMTP id i14MUBLp083710 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) Received: from gordshome (wnpgmb11dc1-167-232.dynamic.mts.net [142.161.167.232]) by srv1.fecyk.ca (SMTPRCV 0.48) with SMTP id ; Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:30:19 -0600 From: "Gordon Fecyk - Home" To: Subject: A specific day chosen? Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:32:06 -0600 Message-ID: <002301c3eb6e$b83be9d0$6701a8c0@fecyk.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Was a specific day of the meeting week chosen to discuss the MXcomp BOF? Or is this to be discussed over several days? I want to make sure I'm available on those days. -- PGP key (0x0AFA039E): What's a PGP Key? See GOD BLESS AMER, er, THE INTERNET. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Thu Feb 5 11:19:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i15JJwvu045303; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i15JJwkh045302; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:19:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sklave3.rackland.de (sklave3.rackland.de [213.133.101.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i15JJv6E045293 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:19:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hadmut@danisch.de) Received: from andromeda (uucp@localhost) by sklave3.rackland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-1) with BSMTP id i15JK7Z5032168 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:20:07 +0100 Received: (from hadmut@localhost) by andromeda.dresden.danisch.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-5) id i15JGbRP012474 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:16:37 +0100 From: Hadmut Danisch Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:16:37 +0100 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Hi Message-ID: <20040205191637.GA12341@danisch.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, I just joined the list and I'm happy to see this working group. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend the next IETF. Will there be a webcast or something like that? I've just released another draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-danisch-scaf-00.txt which is about the generalization of RMX and similar proposals to other network services and directory services. I do understand that this working group is intended to focus on Mail and DNS (as it's name says), but such a mechanism is quite powerful and should not be limited to E-Mail only. Services like Chat and News do have a Spam problem as well. Don't lock them out from a solution. I do not ask you to give up focussing on Mail. That's important to get good results soon. All I ask you is to keep the idea silently in mind and when the search path in DNS space is to be defined just have a path element included specifying that this information is for Mail sender information only, and that similar information for other services could be stored in the very same way and used with the very same software by replacing this particular element with a different one. (Just a correction for Yakov's list for the BOF: RMX was first published in Dec 02. It is derived from my security research in 1992-98 at the European Institute for System Security and my work as a Security Consultant since 1998). regards Hadmut From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 8 14:26:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i18MQsKR077007; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:26:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i18MQsNQ077006; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:26:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i18MQqbV076997 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:26:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.51] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1ApxOL-0006W6-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:27:05 -0500 Received: from [68.29.150.141] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1ApxOJ-0007tZ-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:27:05 -0500 Message-ID: <4026B7AC.2030901@solidmatrix.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:26:52 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: ASRG's Discussion document on LMAP X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: We submitted the ASRG discussion document on LMAP as an Internet draft. It will probably take some time for it to get posted due to the ID backlog. You can find a copy of it here before it gets posted to the IETF ID archive: http://asrg.kavi.com/apps/group_public/download.php/31/draft-irtf-asrg-lmap-discussion-00.txt We will probably submit a follow up -01 draft before the February 16th deadline. Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" (Jon Postel) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 08:50:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19GoI1I043924; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19GoIcT043923; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:50:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sklave3.rackland.de (sklave3.rackland.de [213.133.101.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19GoDEA043899 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hadmut@danisch.de) Received: from andromeda (uucp@localhost) by sklave3.rackland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-1) with BSMTP id i19GoEeP029416; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:50:14 +0100 Received: (from hadmut@localhost) by andromeda.dresden.danisch.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-5) id i19Go4ox013063; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:50:04 +0100 From: Hadmut Danisch Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:50:04 +0100 To: smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Devilish: Forget about DNS Message-ID: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Folks, there has been a lot of discussion about how to cope with the limitations of stone age service DNS. DNS is difficult to extend for new record types, which makes it expensive to introduce a new record type like RMX RR. The currently existing record types make it difficult to store the relevant information, as has been seen by many of the proposals so far, e.g. when people need to store boolen values or integer numbers in A records. When you need to store more information, you need to perform special tricks to store them, like Microsoft's CallerID proposal, which assembles the information from several TXT entries. And - last not least - we are struggling with the packet size limitations and the dualism of UDP and TCP. I'd like to initiate a new discussion thread with this proposal: Forget about DNS (except to use it for what it was built for). We could use a much more modern and robust protocol, the famous and ubiquous HTTP. When we do receive a message from a domain somedomain.com sent from IP address a.b.c.d then we could simple contact the host _lmap.somedomain.com port 80 or - even better - get the SRV entry for _tcp._lmap.somedomain.com which would allow multiple servers, fallback servers, and arbitrary ports. At this port we could fetch from URL /_lmap/somedomain.com (to allow the same server to serve several domains, and receive whatever record format we're going to define, like simple entry lines, XML, ASN.1 or whatever. Need Caching? Just use any HTTP Cache. HTTP pretty well supports transmission of expiry information. Even better: The record could contain a directive to do dynamic queries. In this case we could query /_lmap/somedomain.com.query?ipv4=a.b.c.d or /_lmap/query?domain=somedomain.com&ipv4=a.b.c.d Where the query could be virtually anything if describing it with SPF's macro expansion (maybe include the receiving MTA's country, the MessageID, the size,...). This would allow to easily offer dynamic services as described in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-danisch-scaf-00.txt Additionally, could optionally provide some kind of security with HTTPS. This is robust, easy to maintain, no need for large scale software replacement, in simple cases it's just a file to be put on a webserver, or people can write CGI scripts for any special case. And today, virtually every domain owner should be able to have a file placed somewere on any web server. And updating the file is easier than with DNS's expiry mechanisms. So all we need bloody DNS for is the A and maybe the SRV record to find the server. No tricks, no record type abuse, no hunting for lost TXT records. Just normal use of existing protocols exactly for what they have been designed for. :-) Hadmut (I was too busy to follow all mailing lists within the last months. Would anyone gimme a hint if this has been proposed already?) From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 09:12:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HCF20045532; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19HCF1D045527; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:12:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from paf.se (argv.paf.se [195.66.31.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HCDEZ045423 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:12:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from [195.66.31.70] (account paf [195.66.31.70] verified) by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1421675; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:11:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1141F1C8-5B23-11D8-B0AE-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org, smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Devilish: Forget about DNS Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:11:57 +0100 To: Hadmut Danisch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 2004-02-09, at 17.50, Hadmut Danisch wrote: > DNS is difficult to extend for new record types, which makes > it expensive to introduce a new record type like RMX RR. I don't agree with this. I think we should start the discussion right here. What do you base this information on? (I had this view some 5 years ago, but was convinced I was wrong...and now I am on the other side ;-) paf From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 09:14:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HE13p045858; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19HE1gC045856; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from peacock.verisign.com (peacock.verisign.com [65.205.251.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HE0LY045844 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pbaker@verisign.com) Received: from MOU1WNEXC03.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (mailer3.verisign.com [65.205.251.55]) by peacock.verisign.com (8.12.10/) with ESMTP id i19HE9lG002451; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mou1wnexc03.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <13JX706B>; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:14:09 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" To: "'Hadmut Danisch'" , smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Asrg] Devilish: Forget about DNS Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:14:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > there has been a lot of discussion about how to cope with the > limitations of stone age service DNS. > > DNS is difficult to extend for new record types, which makes > it expensive to introduce a new record type like RMX RR. It is also deployed and it works. The problems with the extension mechanism are in my view dealt with by the _protocol mechanism introduced in SRV and used in NAPTR as well as many of the proposals on the table. > And - last not least - we are struggling with the packet size > limitations and the dualism of UDP and TCP. The proposal to introduce XML into SPF makes a lot of sense if you expect the DNS itself to be replaced at some point in the near future with something XML based. I would not recommend going to HTTP or TCP here, I would look at using something like DIME over UDP with a lightweight session layer - TCP is not designed well for transactions of one to four packets. Then we get into the usual issues, this has been proposed so often in the past that there are strong immune responses tuned to reject anything like it on sight in the IETF. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 09:30:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HU004046882; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:30:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19HU0rh046878; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:30:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sklave3.rackland.de (sklave3.rackland.de [213.133.101.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HTxtx046872 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hadmut@danisch.de) Received: from andromeda (uucp@localhost) by sklave3.rackland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-1) with BSMTP id i19HU7Jc030871; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:30:07 +0100 Received: (from hadmut@localhost) by andromeda.dresden.danisch.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-5) id i19HRLeg013450; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:27:21 +0100 From: Hadmut Danisch Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:27:20 +0100 To: Patrik =?iso-8859-1?B?RuRsdHN0cvZt?= Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org, smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am Subject: Re: Devilish: Forget about DNS Message-ID: <20040209172720.GA13347@danisch.de> References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> <1141F1C8-5B23-11D8-B0AE-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1141F1C8-5B23-11D8-B0AE-000A959CF516@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 06:11:57PM +0100, Patrik Fältström wrote: > On 2004-02-09, at 17.50, Hadmut Danisch wrote: > > >DNS is difficult to extend for new record types, which makes > >it expensive to introduce a new record type like RMX RR. > > I don't agree with this. > > I think we should start the discussion right here. What do you base > this information on? I proposed to introduce a new RR with the first version of the RMX draft in December 2002. Since then I'm drowning in mails like "How can you dare...", "We don't want...", "Too many old DNS servers, which can't be replaced...", "Too expensive...", "Too much overhead...", "Will take 10-20 years...", "We don't support this...", "Proprietary DNS server, can't be extended...", "Needs to replace billions of DNS client softare..." and much, much more of that. The other problem is that many, many people complained that they would need to change the firewall or even network structure because records would grow beyond 512 bytes and require TCP queries. As if many of today's DNS records wouldn't be longer than 512 bytes anyway. But if we accept to query DNS records with TCP, why, after all, should we bother to fetch all entries and to stitch information together from differen TXT and A records or a new record type? HTTP is just perfect for fetching a record of any data type and any length. And it exists. No need to replace or update HTTP servers. All we need is to find the HTTP server which is competent to give the answer. Finding the HTTP server is a DNS task, that's what DNS is designed to do. And a HTTP query is imho significantly better than trying to fetch several records throuth DNS/TCP and trying to stitch them together (and no way to trigger the DNS server to refetch missing records). Hadmut From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 09:34:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HYr12047191; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19HYr4Q047190; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:34:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sklave3.rackland.de (sklave3.rackland.de [213.133.101.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HYqBh047181 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hadmut@danisch.de) Received: from andromeda (uucp@localhost) by sklave3.rackland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-1) with BSMTP id i19HZ7nF031094; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:35:07 +0100 Received: (from hadmut@localhost) by andromeda.dresden.danisch.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-5) id i19HUO8K013493; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:30:24 +0100 From: Hadmut Danisch Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:30:24 +0100 To: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" Cc: smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Asrg] Devilish: Forget about DNS Message-ID: <20040209173024.GB13347@danisch.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:14:00AM -0800, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote: > > I would not recommend going to HTTP or TCP here, I would look at using > something like DIME over UDP with a lightweight session layer - TCP is not > designed well for transactions of one to four packets. On the contrary: While I agree with you on one hand, the network carries tons of HTTP queries which are answered with one to four packets, and nobody cares about. So why should it be worse to fetch RMX/LMAP/whatever records the same way? The TCP with few packets proplem is a separate problem. Let someone else improve HTTP and benefit once this will be done in future. Hadmut From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 09:37:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19Hbk8a047356; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:37:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19HbkJ4047355; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:37:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sklave3.rackland.de (sklave3.rackland.de [213.133.101.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19HbjVi047346 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:37:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hadmut@danisch.de) Received: from andromeda (uucp@localhost) by sklave3.rackland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-1) with BSMTP id i19Hc0RE031203; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:38:00 +0100 Received: (from hadmut@localhost) by andromeda.dresden.danisch.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-5) id i19Hbjjw013568; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:37:45 +0100 From: Hadmut Danisch Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:37:45 +0100 To: smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Devilish: Forget about DNS Message-ID: <20040209173745.GA13511@danisch.de> References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: After spending 20 more minutes to think about I'd go somewhat more into detail: If wanting to fetch the record for somedomain.com do a DNS query for A, SRV and TXT record (or ANY) on _lmap.somedomain.com (violates the SRV RFC a little bit, but for sake of efficiency) If a SRV record is found then try the servers as described in the SRV records elsif A records are found then try on of them or one after another, Port 80 else error, no record available. end If TXT record available then run it through maxcro expansion for sender name, IP address, MessageID,... and take this as the URL to query. (if macro after first '?' then protect special characters as usual in URL query parameters) else use default URL /_lmap/somedomain.com end -> Fetch record and evaluate Hadmut From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 10:06:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19I6MkJ049004; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19I6MD0049003; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:06:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from joy.songbird.com (joy.songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19I6LBF048997 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhc@dcrocker.net) Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i19IEpd24168; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:14:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:06:21 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1527804864.20040209100621@brandenburg.com> To: Hadmut Danisch CC: smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Asrg] Devilish: Forget about DNS In-Reply-To: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hadmut, HD> We could use a much more modern and robust protocol, the HD> famous and ubiquous HTTP. Let's see if I understand your proposal: You want to stop using a distributed lookup service that has worked well for 15 years, and you want to replace it with a point-to-point document retrieval service? Oh, no. That's wrong. You want to continue using DNS 'for what it was built' which is mapping between names and addresses. You just don't want to use it for this particular, new name/address mapping. And, by the way, most of the difficulties making changes that you cite have to do with implementation and operation, not protocol. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 10:24:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19IOuto050272; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19IOu7d050271; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sklave3.rackland.de (sklave3.rackland.de [213.133.101.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19IOs17050265 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hadmut@danisch.de) Received: from andromeda (uucp@localhost) by sklave3.rackland.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-1) with BSMTP id i19IP6ZX000434; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:25:06 +0100 Received: (from hadmut@localhost) by andromeda.dresden.danisch.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-5) id i19IL9m3014125; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:21:09 +0100 From: Hadmut Danisch Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:21:09 +0100 To: Dave Crocker Cc: smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Asrg] Devilish: Forget about DNS Message-ID: <20040209182109.GB13974@danisch.de> References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> <1527804864.20040209100621@brandenburg.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1527804864.20040209100621@brandenburg.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 10:06:21AM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: > Hadmut, > > HD> We could use a much more modern and robust protocol, the > HD> famous and ubiquous HTTP. > > Let's see if I understand your proposal: > > You want to stop using a distributed lookup service that has worked well > for 15 years, and you want to replace it with a point-to-point document > retrieval service? No. You don't understand my proposal. > Oh, no. That's wrong. You want to continue using DNS 'for what it was > built' which is mapping between names and addresses. You just don't want > to use it for this particular, new name/address mapping. No. Again, you don't understand my proposal. I just don't want to use DNS to this particular, new name -> lmap record mapping, where the record is some arbitrary octet sequence of maybe several kilobytes. DNS has never been built oder designed for that purpose. So how could it be wrong to not use DNS for something it has not been made for? And, furthermore, analysis of all the comments I received for my RMX drafts and recent discussions showed that some domains would need to dynamically generate the records depending on the query (see the hotmail example in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-danisch-scaf-00.txt DNS is currently completely unable to provide dynamically generated replies. HTTP servers can easily do that (CGI). Again: I don't want to replace DNS in any way. I just don't want to invent a new use for DNS which DNS can't do properly. That's all. regards Hadmut From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 11:27:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19JR936053954; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19JR9U5053949; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:27:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19JR7N1053938 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.51] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqH3z-0008Rm-00; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:27:23 -0500 Received: from [68.29.206.45] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqH3y-0001tn-00; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:27:23 -0500 Message-ID: <4027DF0B.5010501@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:27:07 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Crocker CC: Hadmut Danisch , smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am, ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Asrg] Devilish: Forget about DNS References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> <1527804864.20040209100621@brandenburg.com> In-Reply-To: <1527804864.20040209100621@brandenburg.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Dave Crocker wrote: > Oh, no. That's wrong. You want to continue using DNS 'for what it was > built' which is mapping between names and addresses. You just don't want > to use it for this particular, new name/address mapping. > RMX/LMAP drafts address the question of relationships between a given domain and a given MTA's IP address. There is nothing wrong with using DNS for this purpose and as a matter of fact, the XMPP draft uses a very similar mechanism via DNS. HOWEVER, if you want to store sender's identity in DNS that is a different question. Then, I would agree with Hadmut that DNS was not designed to store information about specific email accounts. Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "Why are both drug addicts and computer aficionados both called users?" (Clifford Stoll) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 11:57:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19JvRcF055625; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19JvRtw055624; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:57:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19JvPLQ055615 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:57:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Feb 2004 20:58:15 +0100 Received: from XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com (xbe-ams-302.cisco.com [144.254.75.92]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i19JvCL3006807; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:57:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:57:04 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:57:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040209172720.GA13347@danisch.de> References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> <1141F1C8-5B23-11D8-B0AE-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <20040209172720.GA13347@danisch.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4366695D-5B3A-11D8-ABA0-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org, smtp-verify@asrg.sp.am From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Devilish: Forget about DNS Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:58:00 +0100 To: Hadmut Danisch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2004 19:57:35.0613 (UTC) FILETIME=[F656AAD0:01C3EF46] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I see several issues here: > I proposed to introduce a new RR with the first version of the > RMX draft in December 2002. Since then I'm drowning in mails like > "How can you dare...", "We don't want...", "Too many old DNS > servers, which can't be replaced..." Three problems here: (1) The zone file syntax might not be able to handle a new RR _name_ because of parser issues (2) The zone file syntax might not be able to handle a numeric RR type (3) A caching resolver might not be able to cache an unknown RR Out of these (3) is broken software. (2) is problematic and (1) is something users have to manage. > , "Too expensive...", Expensive? > "Too > much overhead...", ??? > "Will take 10-20 years...", "We don't support > this...", "Proprietary DNS server, can't be extended...", Well, NAPTR and SRV took not so many years, and in reality a new round of patches for Bind. Remember that we talk about something which is to be visible in the global DNS, which normally public DNS software is in use. The proprietary stuff is normally hidden inside enterprises (or should be replaced anyway). > "Needs to > replace billions of DNS client softare..." No. This I do not agree with. I have not seen any library which can not query for random RR types. Of course, programmers might be lazy and can not write their own code which parse a new RR type, but this is not an argument for me. For example (good or bad example, you decide...) implementing ENUM using NAPTR as part of IOS in Cisco Routers was not a big deal from a DNS point of view. > and much, much more of > that. Yes, a lot of people say these things....but I have not heard for example people in the DNSEXT wg say such things. They instead say things like "don't overload RR type values in the names (like SRV)" and "don't overload use in RR types (like TXT and NAPTR)". > The other problem is that many, many people complained that they > would need to change the firewall or even network structure because > records would grow beyond 512 bytes and require TCP queries. > As if many of today's DNS records wouldn't be longer than 512 bytes > anyway. Correct. Two issues here: (1) I see a larger risk the rr set expands above 512 bytes if we do NOT use a specialized RR type which minimize the size of the data, and the size of the RR set when sending a query. (2) If they have a firewall which doesn't allow DNS over TCP, they have other problems already. > But if we accept to query DNS records with TCP, why, after all, should > we bother to fetch all entries and to stitch information together from > differen TXT and A records or a new record type? We don't want to use TCP. > HTTP is just perfect > for fetching a record of any data type and any length. And it exists. > No need to replace or update HTTP servers. No, HTTP is not fun. Any implementation of HTTP is multiple degrees harder to implement that DNS. Have you read the spec? > All we need is to find the HTTP server which is competent to give the > answer. Finding the HTTP server is a DNS task, that's what DNS is > designed to do. > > And a HTTP query is imho significantly better than trying to fetch > several records throuth DNS/TCP and trying to stitch them together > (and no way to trigger the DNS server to refetch missing records). If you need to first use DNS, and then some other protocol, then this other protocol should be defined so it solves the problem which is to be solved. We should not get a bulldozer to try to catch flies. See for example RFC 3205. paf From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 12:09:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19K9PHb056147; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19K9PSu056146; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:09:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19K9N7v056140 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:09:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.51] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqHie-0007qq-00; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:09:24 -0500 Received: from [68.29.206.45] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqHic-0002hW-00; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:09:24 -0500 Message-ID: <4027E8E8.3040404@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:09:12 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: Hadmut Danisch , ietf-mxcomp@imc.org, asrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Devilish: Forget about DNS References: <20040209165004.GA12761@danisch.de> <1141F1C8-5B23-11D8-B0AE-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <20040209172720.GA13347@danisch.de> <4366695D-5B3A-11D8-ABA0-000A959CF516@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4366695D-5B3A-11D8-ABA0-000A959CF516@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Patrik Fältström wrote: > I see several issues here: > >> I proposed to introduce a new RR with the first version of the >> RMX draft in December 2002. Since then I'm drowning in mails like >> "How can you dare...", "We don't want...", "Too many old DNS >> servers, which can't be replaced..." > > > Three problems here: > > (1) The zone file syntax might not be able to handle a new RR _name_ > because of parser issues > (2) The zone file syntax might not be able to handle a numeric RR type > (3) A caching resolver might not be able to cache an unknown RR > > Out of these (3) is broken software. (2) is problematic and (1) is > something users have to manage. > I would like to add to this that XMPP uses SRV records to verify the domain name/server IP relationship. See http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xmpp-core-22.txt, section 14.3. Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "But in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes" (Benjamin Franklin) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 12:47:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19Klfm3058369; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19KlfrU058368; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:47:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19KldjM058362 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:47:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.51] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqIJx-0004Me-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:47:57 -0500 Received: from [68.29.206.45] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqIJw-0003Su-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:47:57 -0500 Message-ID: <4027F1F4.4040505@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:47:48 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: SPF Draft submitted as an Internet draft X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: SPF has been submitted as an Internet draft. A copy of it can be found here until its get posted by the ID admin: http://spf.pobox.com/draft-mengwong-spf-00.txt Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "Among all our enemies / The ones to be most feared are often the smallest" (Jean de la Fontaine) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Feb 9 15:06:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19N6kNU066779; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i19N6kic066778; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i19N6jQ7066771 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:06:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqKUX-00036p-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:07:01 -0500 Received: from [68.29.206.45] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqKUW-0003zh-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:07:01 -0500 Message-ID: <4028128B.9010201@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:06:51 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: MTA MARK draft on "Marking MTAs in rDNS" has posted X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: MTA MARK draft has been posted to the ID archive: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stumpf-dns-mtamark-00.txt Abstract: " In contrast to other more extensive approaches to deal with unsolicited email, commonly called "spam", this memo discusses a very simple authentication scheme. It uses marking of hosts in reverse DNS (in-addr.arpa zone) to allow the receiving mail transfer agents to decide whether the connecting (sending) host is a designated mail transfer agent (MTA) or not. Despite being a weaker scheme than most of the other proposals currently discussed, it can reduce the amount of spam and viruses/ worms significantly and has the advantage that it can be implemented based on existing and well-established Internet technology like DNS without any changes to that technology. " Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "I ate your Web page. / Forgive me. It was juicy / And tart on my tongue." (MIT's 404 Message) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 11:17:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJHTft007944; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:17:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AJHT4b007943; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:17:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJHRLt007932 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:17:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.52] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqdO0-0001AJ-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:17:32 -0500 Received: from [68.29.152.163] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqdNz-0002UV-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:17:32 -0500 Message-ID: <40292E44.3080200@solidmatrix.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:17:24 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Updated reading list for the BOF X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: LMAP Discussion document from the ASRG: draft-irtf-asrg-lmap-discussion Proposals: draft-stumpf-dns-mtamark draft-brand-drip draft-danisch-dns-rr-smtp draft-fecyk-dmp draft-mengwong-spf draft-levine-fsv Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "I ate your Web page. / Forgive me. It was juicy / And tart on my tongue." (MIT's 404 Message) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 11:22:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJMtG9008620; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AJMt2A008619; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:22:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www.pan-am.ca ([209.82.56.246]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJMsSl008491 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) Subject: RE: Updated reading list for the BOF Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:21:50 -0600 Message-ID: <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA754@srv1.pan-am.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Thread-Topic: Updated reading list for the BOF content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-Index: AcPwCsZ+9ggW/kNiQvGokqvxAe8FewAAB+5Q From: "Gordon Fecyk" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i1AJMsSl008614 Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: What was the document for Microsoft's "caller-id" draft? Or was this going to be discussed? -- PGP key (0x0AFA039E): What's a PGP Key? See GOD BLESS AMER, er, THE INTERNET. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 11:26:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJQMfw008849; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:26:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AJQMqk008848; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:26:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJQKED008841 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:26:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.52] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqdWe-0001xs-00; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:26:28 -0500 Received: from [68.29.152.163] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqdWd-0002gf-00; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:26:28 -0500 Message-ID: <40293058.6090507@solidmatrix.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:26:16 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gordon Fecyk CC: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: Updated reading list for the BOF References: <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA754@srv1.pan-am.ca> In-Reply-To: <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA754@srv1.pan-am.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Gordon Fecyk wrote: > What was the document for Microsoft's "caller-id" draft? Or was this going > to be discussed? > As per the rules set down by the BOF chairs, only documents submitted as Internet drafts will be discussed. Microsoft declined to submit one, ergo they will not be discussed [although the bar BOF will probably mention them :) ]. Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "All that is gold does not glitter" (LOTR) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 11:51:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJpAsk010596; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AJpAcV010595; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AJp8f6010576 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:51:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2004 20:51:51 +0100 Received: from XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com (xbe-ams-302.cisco.com [144.254.75.92]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i1AJomL1027506; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:50:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-301.cisco.com ([144.254.75.88]) by XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:50:39 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:51:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <40293058.6090507@solidmatrix.com> References: <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA754@srv1.pan-am.ca> <40293058.6090507@solidmatrix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <98029F96-5C02-11D8-B4E7-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Gordon Fecyk , ietf-mxcomp@imc.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Updated reading list for the BOF Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:52:01 +0100 To: Yakov Shafranovich X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2004 19:51:12.0080 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C25ED00:01C3F00F] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 2004-02-10, at 20.26, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > Gordon Fecyk wrote: >> What was the document for Microsoft's "caller-id" draft? Or was this >> going >> to be discussed? > > As per the rules set down by the BOF chairs, only documents submitted > as Internet drafts will be discussed. Microsoft declined to submit > one, ergo they will not be discussed [although the bar BOF will > probably mention them :) ]. This is correct. Only documents existing in the I-D repository at the time of the meeting will be discussed. And the fact some bar-discussions might talk about whatever they want is also correct. But, the requirement for an I-D is needed so everyone is really on the same page... paf -- one of the co-chairs From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 14:09:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AM9bmB019298; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:09:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AM9bda019294; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:09:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AM9ZX0019280 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:09:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Aqg4h-0000ZK-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:09:47 -0500 Received: from [68.29.247.203] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Aqg4g-0002AC-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:09:47 -0500 Message-ID: <402956A0.3010500@solidmatrix.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:09:36 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: BOF Scheduled Time posted X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Looks like the BOF has been scheduled for Thursday morning: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/agenda_59.txt Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" (Lord Acton) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 14:21:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AMLB0S020206; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AMLBeC020205; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:21:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AML9hJ020190 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2004 23:21:51 +0100 Received: from xbe-ams-312.cisco.com (xbe-ams-312.cisco.com [144.254.228.202]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i1AMKnL3000174; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:20:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by xbe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:21:14 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:21:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <402956A0.3010500@solidmatrix.com> References: <402956A0.3010500@solidmatrix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8F881662-5C17-11D8-B1DB-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: BOF Scheduled Time posted Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:22:06 +0100 To: Yakov Shafranovich X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2004 22:21:14.0168 (UTC) FILETIME=[31CF8B80:01C3F024] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 2004-02-10, at 23.09, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > Looks like the BOF has been scheduled for Thursday morning: > > http://www.ietf.org/meetings/agenda_59.txt Just remember this agenda is only very preliminary. The agenda is still changed. paf From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 14:24:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AMOKGx020407; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AMOKjo020406; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:24:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AMOIK6020400 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqgIt-0002nB-00; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:24:27 -0500 Received: from [68.29.247.203] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AqgIr-0002UA-00; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:24:27 -0500 Message-ID: <40295A09.4040909@solidmatrix.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:24:09 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: BOF Scheduled Time posted References: <402956A0.3010500@solidmatrix.com> <8F881662-5C17-11D8-B1DB-000A959CF516@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8F881662-5C17-11D8-B1DB-000A959CF516@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Patrik Fältström wrote: > > On 2004-02-10, at 23.09, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > >> Looks like the BOF has been scheduled for Thursday morning: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/meetings/agenda_59.txt > > > Just remember this agenda is only very preliminary. The agenda is still > changed. > Yep, I realize that. As a matter of fact, we might want to take MS off the agenda, and perhaps discuss MTA MARK? Yakov ------- Yakov Shafranovich / asrg shaftek.org SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. / research solidmatrix.com "Among all our enemies / The ones to be most feared are often the smallest" (Jean de la Fontaine) ------- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Tue Feb 10 15:05:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AN5X0x022779; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1AN5XqA022778; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:05:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www.pan-am.ca ([209.82.56.246]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1AN5WJX022769 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:05:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) Subject: RE: BOF Scheduled Time posted Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:05:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA758@srv1.pan-am.ca> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Thread-Topic: BOF Scheduled Time posted content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-Index: AcPwIqtfWuID5iIjQjqRIDQD3fhBDQABhijw From: "Gordon Fecyk" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i1AN5WJX022773 Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > Looks like the BOF has been scheduled for Thursday morning: > > http://www.ietf.org/meetings/agenda_59.txt As long as that's Thursday morning Seoul time, I'm happy. I have to leave at 15:00 on Thursday to catch my plane home (departure time is 18:00). Usually airlines want you there two hours before an international departure. If schedule changes make it impossible for me to attend the BOF, may I leave materials and questions with another attendee? It was either that, or wait until the following Tuesday to go home, and I can't afford that. :-) I plan on getting as familiar as I can in the preceding days - this is new to me, and I'm glad this BOF is later than most. -- PGP key (0x0AFA039E): What's a PGP Key? See GOD BLESS AMER, er, THE INTERNET. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Wed Feb 25 11:28:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PJSI0U028047; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1PJSIeo028045; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com (ithilien.qualcomm.com [129.46.51.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PJSHT3028039 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:28:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hardie@qualcomm.com) Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i1PJSHvf019942; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.227.161] (carbuncle.qualcomm.com [129.46.227.161]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i1PJSFVK027366; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:28:16 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: hardie@mage.qualcomm.com Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:28:14 -0800 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org From: Ted Hardie Subject: Fwd: Updated agenda for MARID Cc: paf@cisco.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: [What has been updated is the list of I-D's so it matches what actually has been sent to the I-D archive. Thanks to Yakov for keeping track of the list of documents. /paf] MTA Authorization Records in DNS (marid) Thursday, March 4 at 0900-1130 ============================== CHAIRS: Patrik Faltstrom Ted Hardie DESCRIPTION: This meeting will review a set of related proposals for the DNS publication of data which authorizes SMTP senders within a specific domain. The proposals to be discussed vary in the proposed resource record type, syntax, and operation, but all include DNS publication of data intended to allow validation of IP address, envelope, or originator header data for SMTP MTAs. This BoF will be strictly limited to measures related to MTA authentication; no other anti-spam measures or topics will be considered. The BoF will explicitly consider how DNS-based MTA authentication mechanisms would be implemented and deployed, and it will consider the impact on the overall DNS infrastructure of this deployment. This meeting will discuss whether or not an IETF working group is needed to continue work on this topic. AGENDA: Agenda Bashing 5 Problem Overview 35 Taking draft-irtf-asrg-lmap-discussion-01.txt as a starting point, this discussion will focus on the problem these proposals attempt to solve, the broad outlines of the solution space proposed, and the constraints implied by that solution space. Current Proposals (1 hour together) MTAMARK - draft-stumpf-dns-mtamark-01.txt DRIP - draft-brand-drip-02.txt RMX - draft-danisch-dns-rr-smtp-03.txt DMP - draft-fecyk-dmp-01.txt SPF - draft-mengwong-spf-00.txt FSV - draft-levine-fsv-00.txt Implications for the DNS 15 Based on the current proposals, the BoF will discuss how this approach generally and each proposal specifically interacts with the DNS. Implications for SMTP 15 Based on the current proposals, the BoF will discuss how this approach generally and each proposal specifically interacts with existing and proposed mechanisms for mail transfer. Discussion of scope for IETF work 20 From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sat Feb 28 21:19:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T5JtVY029154; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1T5JtUm029153; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:19:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T5JsI0029146 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxJMt-0004h9-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 00:19:59 -0500 Received: from [68.244.239.148] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxJMs-0001EQ-00 for ietf-mxcomp@imc.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 00:19:59 -0500 Message-ID: <40417676.6050207@solidmatrix.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 00:19:50 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Passing authentication information via SMTP X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: One of the concerns raised with LMAP proposals is the fact that they overload the MAIL FROM command. The following proposal passes such information via an ESMTP extension: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pelletier-smtp-trust-01.txt This is might be something to consider in the long run. Yakov From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sat Feb 28 23:45:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T7jwQM071417; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1T7jw4F071415; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:45:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pan-am.ca (srv1.fecyk.ca [206.45.235.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T7juQS071398 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) Received: from termroompc03 ([218.37.216.103] unverified) by mail.pan-am.ca over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:45:55 -0600 From: "Gordon Fecyk" To: Subject: RE: Passing authentication information via SMTP Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:45:49 +0900 Message-ID: <007701c3fe98$118663d0$67d825da@ietf59.or.kr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40417676.6050207@solidmatrix.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 07:45:55.0884 (UTC) FILETIME=[10529EC0:01C3FE98] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > One of the concerns raised with LMAP proposals is the fact that they > overload the MAIL FROM command. Isn't that the intent? I understand overloading a DNS record type - giving more meaning to a record type than originally intended. I'm not as clear on "overloading" a SMTP command, especially this one as MAIL FROM is supposed to tell us who the mail is from and we're only verifying that - at least as far as the domain part for most. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sat Feb 28 23:52:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T7qfvj073519; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:52:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1T7qfEv073516; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:52:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.40]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T7qeOf073503 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:52:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxLkd-0007uu-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:52:39 -0500 Received: from [68.244.239.148] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxLkb-00050l-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:52:39 -0500 Message-ID: <40419A38.4000100@solidmatrix.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:52:24 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gordon Fecyk CC: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: Passing authentication information via SMTP References: <007701c3fe98$118663d0$67d825da@ietf59.or.kr> In-Reply-To: <007701c3fe98$118663d0$67d825da@ietf59.or.kr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Gordon Fecyk wrote: >>One of the concerns raised with LMAP proposals is the fact that they >>overload the MAIL FROM command. > > Isn't that the intent? > > I understand overloading a DNS record type - giving more meaning to a > record type than originally intended. > > I'm not as clear on "overloading" a SMTP command, especially this one as > MAIL FROM is supposed to tell us who the mail is from and we're only > verifying that - at least as far as the domain part for most. > The MAIL FROM parameter does not tell us where the mail is from, only the bounce address for that email. The assumption is that whoever is the bounce address is, is probably the sender, but in many cases especially mailing lists, that is not true. As a matter of fact in some protocols such as SMTP AUTH, the sender's identity is passed in an SMTP extension separate from the bounce address. This of course depends on what the LMAP proposals are designed to do. If they are designed to give domain owners ability to state which MTAs can use their domains in the bounce addresses, that's fine but it should be clearly stated as such and not be confused with the sender of the email, which is unknown during the SMTP transaction. Yakov From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 01:30:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T9U2oa004461; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1T9U2CI004459; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pan-am.ca (srv1.fecyk.ca [206.45.235.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1T9U0vd004445 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:30:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) Received: from termroompc03 ([218.37.216.103] unverified) by mail.pan-am.ca over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sun, 29 Feb 2004 03:30:00 -0600 From: "Gordon Fecyk" To: Subject: RE: Passing authentication information via SMTP Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:29:54 +0900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C3FEF2.0BACA370" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 00000000E2970D018E9A0740A1EBD1B2AF2FD16124052000 In-Reply-To: <40419A38.4000100@solidmatrix.com> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 09:30:01.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[9AC083C0:01C3FEA6] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C3FEF2.0BACA370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The MAIL FROM parameter does not tell us where the mail is from, only=20 > the bounce address for that email. The assumption is that whoever is = the=20 > bounce address is, is probably the sender, but in many cases = especially=20 > mailing lists, that is not true. As a matter of fact in some protocols = > such as SMTP AUTH, the sender's identity is passed in an SMTP = extension=20 > separate from the bounce address. The only other problem I have with the idea of overloading, then, is = support of non-ESMTP clients and servers. The ESMTP extension proposed has a prerequisite of ESMTP, and there are still many upgradable traditional = SMTP systems in use. All the *ix crowd can jeer if they want, but I'm interested in seeing ancient things like EMWAC IMS supporting a LMAP-type system. The = venerable IMS is still supported by a grassroots movement who've gone and = rewritten components of IMS to modernize it. To keep the project lightweight I = think they'd rather not have to parse ESMTP. Requiring ESMTP of a verification system but still requiring to support non-ESMTP also leaves a hole big enough for a spam truck to drive = through. Spammers could just revert to traditional SMTP to avoid this particular ESMTP extension, and (unless the server overloads an existing SMTP = command) the ESMTP server still has to accept mail from the non-ESMTP client by = ESMTP defenition. (RFC 2821 2.2.1 to start with). Aren't most virus SMTP = engines using traditional SMTP rather than ESMTP to keep the code small? ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C3FEF2.0BACA370 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IgIJAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGAAcAAQAAAAAAAAEGgAMADgAAANQHAgAd ABIAHQAAAAAAKQEBA5AGALgJAAAtAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAAD AC4AAAAAAAIBMQABAAAAGAAAAAAAAADilw0BjpoHQKHr0bKvL9Fh5AQgAAMANgAAAAAAHgBwAAEA AAAsAAAAUGFzc2luZyBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB2aWEgU01UUAACAXEAAQAA ABYAAAABw/6mgNTiR8dxQXxB/IrnQUT6osDeAAACAR0MAQAAABcAAABTTVRQOkdPUkRPTkZAUEFO LUFNLkNBAAALAAEOAAAAAEAABg4A1ld2pv7DAQIBCg4BAAAAGAAAAAAAAADilw0BjpoHQKHr0bKv L9FhwoAAAAMAFA4AAAAACwAfDgEAAAAeACgOAQAAACoAAAAwMDAwMDAwNwFnb3Jkb25mQHBhbi1h bS5jYQFtYWlsLnBhbi1hbS5jYQAAAB4AKQ4BAAAAKgAAADAwMDAwMDA3AWdvcmRvbmZAcGFuLWFt LmNhAW1haWwucGFuLWFtLmNhAAAAAgEJEAEAAACrBAAApwQAABkHAABMWkZ1MbJ9rwMACgByY3Bn MTI14jIDQ3RleAVBAQMB9/8KgAKkA+QHEwKAD/MAUARWPwhVB7IRJQ5RAwECAGNo4QrAc2V0MgYA BsMRJfYzBEYTtzASLBEzCO8J97Y7GB8OMDURIgxgYwBQMwsJAWQzNhZQC6YgPhAgVGhlBdBBSUxA IEZST00gCrFhJweADrAFwGRvB5Fub6sFQA6wbAMgdQQgdx0gvxggHxAdIQDAAxEEACADUuQsIAIg bHkK4wqAHPAjIAIG4HVuYx0wYWS+ZBggBBECEAXAIABhBUAqZSBCLh0DYQQQdW19BTBpAiAggiNj H6AeoHb/EoElEx0wIXYiPQQAIQAgkXpwA2BiAaAhQSACFBBucwSBIQBidQVAC4AgMW7dIVBjJGAH kQeQcAWQBzEnIUkgQguAZyAsMHN0bygBI2MgkR7jcgpQJABBnQQgYSAxAkASgW9mILA7ANAp03MD cB0wKGF0b38XkQQhIYUkgBPQJFEGAE3EVFAQwFVUSCzSKRbOJyfRAQACMGl0IVAoMv8kYQmAKeID kTFzDsEJ8ACQ+yThMHdlHfIOsCCzIe8EEP4uIXQhdB0SISMe8B+xKFPibCOwIEkgE+Al0B+QvzNA MSAgAjLxLkAu0W8l0W8XsCKgLEEyA24oEySAcI5wF8Euwh7gbi1FMXO+YywwMxEuISlQKSFyJdH9 N+AgHQM+BDTYKGE9QDPizxPgLiIoYB/BcXUEADNA/zjhLuA+AyEAPuI5YiKBH9H/LKADEAMgKiM9 IAnAIqAooT8f4UUhM0Ak0QdAMWRzeX8soCOwJ9EDoB9wLeA4CkFjH0EgAippeCpgA2B39zQAKnAD oGoJ4CXxLuAgAZUhUHcAcHQplEknNrC/C4AeUQeQDrA0AxQQZSxCfwBwKxAzER/xLEEEICwwa+E/ 4U1XQUM6IAXhPRXJTIMgTB1QUC0zUCrw90alP5Ul0G4EkEVTTmI84vdEUz0VM/FiIVAuQEURBBD/ A2Ae8AQgBGAl0AeATRElkXonOnFnAiAigT7xGCB3/wUQLoEDoAWgJKBVAT6iLtFPTmIwAFPhBIJp ejsRdP8/kldQTdA2AB/zKGFJwC8h4SwwZ2h0d0xwWcE6IfVNQmtKMydVYSOAOXIe4r86U1dBCrEU ED/0N/tSQjL/BRAsUT4ELtEuQCXRBpAN4P8jgCTSRrQpo0REQiNeU1dB/z0WPcgHQC+ALHA7UCXQ LiK7JaBFcWJZsCOgHuB1WcDfIxMuQCrgHiAtomNawVdQdSLAaVwiaANgZME/kVNPZXEHgBQAVhF1 bDQAav8fcAVAGCAl0R8BV1BFr1dBvTpgbzLwTTIzkk7xY2fw9wrBQA1DRCgiUDnwBBEo9P8/Qjun PsI0wSyRLEI+FANw+QOBZCkf8z4EbdVEREGS/WoyYyJwBTEgQzaHPc5S4h8+BAEBCfBF4yQAKFJG oU5AMjgyMXZQLnaw33aQYdIBkD1hOqIpP5EHEN0J8CdysUFABUB2XkAfcf80hCxQC4AHkR9wYZNF vltV/yNhA6A+BFdBWJcFoAEAKSArAMAfQD8hdH1+gAAeAEIQAQAAACMAAAA8NDA0MTlBMzguNDAw MDEwMEBzb2xpZG1hdHJpeC5jb20+AAADAJIQAAAAAAIBFDoBAAAAEAAAAGV9ccu7AgRBjeK5tD3P l6kDAN4/n04AAAMACVkBAAAAAwBAZQAAAAALABOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAA AAMAJ4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAAAwA1gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA EIUAAAAAAAADADqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAA45ABAB4AO4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABQAAADEwLjAAAAAACwA8gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABoUAAAAA AAALAECACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMARIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA ABiFAAAAAAAACwBagAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAADilw0B jpoHQKHr0bKvL9FhAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAA4pcNAY6aB0Ch69Gyry/RYQIB+w8BAAAAlAAAAAAAAAA4 obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABtc3BzdC5kbGwAAAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcRG9jdW1l bnRzIGFuZCBTZXR0aW5nc1xpZXRmNTlcTG9jYWwgU2V0dGluZ3NcQXBwbGljYXRpb24gRGF0YVxN aWNyb3NvZnRcT3V0bG9va1xPdXRsb29rLnBzdAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwIAAgEUNAEAAAAQAAAA TklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADAwMDAwMDAwRTI5NzBEMDE4RTlBMDc0MEExRUJE MUIyQUYyRkQxNjEyNDA1MjAwMAAAAAADAAYQQLglngMABxC2BAAAAwAQEAEAAAADABEQAAAAAB4A CBABAAAAZQAAAFRIRU1BSUxGUk9NUEFSQU1FVEVSRE9FU05PVFRFTExVU1dIRVJFVEhFTUFJTElT RlJPTSxPTkxZVEhFQk9VTkNFQUREUkVTU0ZPUlRIQVRFTUFJTFRIRUFTU1VNUFRJT05JU1QAAAAA koc= ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C3FEF2.0BACA370-- From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 11:11:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TJB5JU046476; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:11:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1TJB5kj046475; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:11:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TJB4Lf046469 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxWLC-0005G7-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:11:06 -0500 Received: from [68.244.153.112] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxWLB-0003rG-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:11:06 -0500 Message-ID: <4042393C.4000309@solidmatrix.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:10:52 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gordon Fecyk CC: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: Passing authentication information via SMTP References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Gordon Fecyk wrote: >>The MAIL FROM parameter does not tell us where the mail is from, only >>the bounce address for that email. The assumption is that whoever is the >>bounce address is, is probably the sender, but in many cases especially >>mailing lists, that is not true. As a matter of fact in some protocols >>such as SMTP AUTH, the sender's identity is passed in an SMTP extension >>separate from the bounce address. > > > The only other problem I have with the idea of overloading, then, is support > of non-ESMTP clients and servers. The ESMTP extension proposed has a > prerequisite of ESMTP, and there are still many upgradable traditional SMTP > systems in use. > That is correct. With LMAP you have to change the receiver's MTA software and the sender's DNS records. With this SMTP extension, you also have to change the sender's SMTP software. It does impose a higher burden which might or might not be justified. This might be one of the things we will end up discussing here. > Requiring ESMTP of a verification system but still requiring to support > non-ESMTP also leaves a hole big enough for a spam truck to drive through. > Spammers could just revert to traditional SMTP to avoid this particular > ESMTP extension, and (unless the server overloads an existing SMTP command) > the ESMTP server still has to accept mail from the non-ESMTP client by ESMTP > defenition. (RFC 2821 2.2.1 to start with). Aren't most virus SMTP engines > using traditional SMTP rather than ESMTP to keep the code small? Even with regular LMAP, spammers that do not publish LMAP records are essentially doing the same thing, and you have a range of ways to deal with it. Yakov From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 11:16:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TJG4lY046756; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:16:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1TJG47j046755; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TJG3aO046749 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxWQ0-0006Mm-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:16:04 -0500 Received: from [68.244.153.112] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AxWPz-00042C-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:16:04 -0500 Message-ID: <40423A67.5020600@solidmatrix.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:15:51 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Jabber channel for the BoF? X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Is there going to be a chat channel for the BoF so those who cannot attend in person can ask? Or is the multicast being used for that? Yakov From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 12:13:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TKDQVe050278; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i1TKDQ3C050277; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:13:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TKDPNU050271 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com (xbe-ams-302.cisco.com [144.254.75.92]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i1TKCg0c028953; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:12:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:12:09 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:13:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <40423A67.5020600@solidmatrix.com> References: <40423A67.5020600@solidmatrix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Jabber channel for the BoF? Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:12:59 +0900 To: Yakov Shafranovich X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 20:13:10.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[73A87A90:01C3FF00] Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 2004-03-01, at 04.15, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > Is there going to be a chat channel for the BoF so those who cannot > attend in person can ask? Or is the multicast being used for that? Jabber channel will be used for input/output. Multicast I see as a broadcast medium of the video and audio (only) in one direction. Ted and I will try to see we have a Jabber scribe which reads what "external people write" plus of course write what happens at the meeting. paf From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 21:15:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i215FoFN087899; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:15:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i215Fo95087898; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:15:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com (mail-dark.research.att.com [192.20.225.112]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i215Fns0087892 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:15:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smb@research.att.com) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-102.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by mail-dark.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19ADE81B7 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.30.101]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C806F3AFF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from berkshire.research.att.com (guard.research.att.com [135.207.1.20]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i215FtZ01270 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berkshire.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181D97B43 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:15:54 +0900 (KST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 From: Steve Bellovin To: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: we made CNN.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 14:15:54 +0900 Message-Id: <20040301051554.181D97B43@berkshire.research.att.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/02/27/email.origins.ap/index.html --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 21:34:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i215Y52D088841; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i215Y5Lq088840; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:34:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.40]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i215Y3HV088833 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:34:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@solidmatrix.com) Received: from [217.160.230.50] (helo=smtp.perfora.net) by mout.perfora.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Axg4B-0003I9-00; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:34:11 -0500 Received: from [68.244.153.112] (helo=solidmatrix.com) by smtp.perfora.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Axg49-0001pK-00; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:34:11 -0500 Message-ID: <4042CB43.8070507@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:33:55 -0500 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, he, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Bellovin CC: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: we made CNN.... References: <20040301051554.181D97B43@berkshire.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <20040301051554.181D97B43@berkshire.research.att.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Steve Bellovin wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/02/27/email.origins.ap/index.html > > --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb > > And BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3492354.stm), in particular I like this quote: "The internet's engineering body has set up an emergency meeting to sift through the different proposals and draw up a network-wide solution." Yakov From owner-ietf-mxcomp Sun Feb 29 22:03:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2163GjU092428; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:03:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i2163GxL092425; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:03:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2163EDD092412 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from halvestr-w2k1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A057761C0C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:03:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 14:58:28 +0900 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Yakov Shafranovich , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: Jabber channel for the BoF? Message-ID: <1005966.1078153108@localhost> In-Reply-To: <40423A67.5020600@solidmatrix.com> References: <40423A67.5020600@solidmatrix.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Yes. marid@ietf.xmpp.org. --On 29. februar 2004 14:15 -0500 Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > > Is there going to be a chat channel for the BoF so those who cannot > attend in person can ask? Or is the multicast being used for that? > > Yakov > > > From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Mar 1 06:14:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21EEfa4015759; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i21EEfPZ015758; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:14:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pigeon.verisign.com (pigeon.verisign.com [65.205.251.71]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21EEdlp015748 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:14:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pbaker@verisign.com) Received: from mou1wnexc01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (verisign.com [65.205.251.53]) by pigeon.verisign.com (8.12.11/) with ESMTP id i21EEfWK026136; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mou1wnexc01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:14:41 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" To: "'Yakov Shafranovich'" , Steve Bellovin Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: RE: we made CNN.... Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:14:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: >And BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3492354.stm), in >particular I like this quote: >"The internet's engineering body has set up an emergency meeting to sift >through the different proposals and draw up a network-wide solution." This is not good. The world has been set expectations for the meeting that are unlikely to be met. Only one of the industry backed proposals will even be represented at the meeting. It is clear from the statements being made that the IETF has little institutional understanding of the seriousness with which the spam problem is now considered by the ISPs and end users. Fortunately it is unlikely that any press will attend the meeting given the location. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Mar 1 15:30:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21NUh8Y056492; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:30:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i21NUhPw056491; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pan-am.ca (srv1.fecyk.ca [206.45.235.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21NUgnq056485 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordonf@pan-am.ca) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: we made CNN.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:30:47 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Message-ID: <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA783@srv1.fecyk.ca> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: we made CNN.... Thread-Index: AcP/l7jz+klwr+OxRcuGrU4jb+nghQATT5LQ From: "Gordon Fecyk" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i21NUhnq056486 Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > It is clear from the statements being > made that the IETF has little institutional understanding of > the seriousness > with which the spam problem is now considered by the ISPs and > end users. More like the press has little understanding of the IETF. From what I've read to date, that seems to be the norm. And it is too bad none of the press are here. I'd like to deliver some Clue to them. -- PGP key (0x0AFA039E): What's a PGP Key? See GOD BLESS AMER, er, THE INTERNET. From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Mar 1 16:01:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2201fSo057964; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i2201euE057963; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-white.research.att.com (mail-red.research.att.com [192.20.225.110]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2201b4f057954 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smb@research.att.com) Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-102.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by mail-white.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D7F66404B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.30.101]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0663F3B06; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from berkshire.research.att.com (guard.research.att.com [135.207.1.20]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2201eZ12851; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berkshire.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEB67B43; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:01:36 +0900 (KST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: "Gordon Fecyk" Cc: ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: Re: we made CNN.... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:30:47 CST." <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA783@srv1.fecyk.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:01:36 +0900 Message-Id: <20040302000136.BCEB67B43@berkshire.research.att.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In message <700EEF5641B7E247AC1C9B82C05D125DA783@srv1.fecyk.ca>, "Gordon Fecyk" writes: > >> It is clear from the statements being >> made that the IETF has little institutional understanding of >> the seriousness >> with which the spam problem is now considered by the ISPs and >> end users. > >More like the press has little understanding of the IETF. From what I've >read to date, that seems to be the norm. > >And it is too bad none of the press are here. I'd like to deliver some Clue >to them. In fact, there are at least three reporters registered for the IETF, one of whom works for a major international publication. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Mar 1 16:09:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2209IbY058525; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:09:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i2209Huq058523; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:09:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from peacock.verisign.com (peacock.verisign.com [65.205.251.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2209EqT058512 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pbaker@verisign.com) Received: from MOU1WNEXC03.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (mailer3.verisign.com [65.205.251.55]) by peacock.verisign.com (8.12.11/) with ESMTP id i2209Kj2017214; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mou1wnexc03.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:09:20 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" To: "'Gordon Fecyk'" , ietf-mxcomp@imc.org Subject: RE: we made CNN.... Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:09:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ietf-mxcomp@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > > It is clear from the statements being > > made that the IETF has little institutional understanding of > > the seriousness > > with which the spam problem is now considered by the ISPs and > > end users. > > More like the press has little understanding of the IETF. > From what I've > read to date, that seems to be the norm. If the IETF does not want to be organizing the response to spam then it should just tell everyone and it will be left alone. The press believes that the IETF is in charge of the Internet, the IETf has not exactly tried to discourage this view. Consensus does not mean that everyone gets a veto power on change. If the proposers of SPF, caller ID etc. do not believe that they advance in this forum they will choose another. What the proponents of change want is an expedited process to agree on a standard to solve a very urgent problem. They would also like the imprimatur and endorsement that the IETF provides, although that is of dubious value if it will take more than a year to obtain. What I or anyone else in my position is looking for from a standards process is a means to help generate the critical mass necessary to drive deployment, the reason for a consensus process is to get buy in from the core stakeholders. We are NOT looking for technical expertise, or a committee of the great and the good to show how important they are by taking over a year to read drafts. Phill From owner-ietf-mxcomp Mon Mar 1 16:10:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i220AnNa058668;