From: greg andruk (gja@meowing.net)
Date: Tue Oct 08 2002 - 04:43:27 CDT
Charles Lindsey wrote:
> In <3DA058BD.1040102@meowing.net> greg andruk <gja@meowing.net> writes:
>
>
>
>>Erland Sommarskog wrote:
>
>
>>>However, the use of UTF-8 only requires user agents to be updated
>
>
>>False. Servers would require modifications to their moderated group
>>handling and control mesage processing
>
>
> No, I think not. Editing the mailpaths file will work fine for existing
> servers until they get upgraded.
Are we certain that everyone who will need to do this has the latest X11
installed with an xterm capable of using UTF-8? If not, how does one
know that the newsgroup name is entered correctly in the moderators
file? How do I do this from a Boundless VT520?
How is the sysadmin alerted that this new group needs to be added? Witt
a mail message, of course. I hope there aren't any news servers out
there with sendmail installed.
> Even when UTF-8 newsgroups start to be
> deployed, the number of them that are initially moderated will be
> exceedingly small.
There would, of course, be a direct cause and effect, with the
gratuitous incompatibilities.
> The worst that will happen to an unupgraded server (or
> rather its injection agent) is that moderator mail sent to the address
> constructed by the present algorithm will fail through containing
> "illegal" characters, or will bounce from the moderators.isc.org site.
In other words, it will fail to interoperate.
> Either way, the server admin is alerted to the fact that he has a user who
> posts to one of these new-fangled groups. So either he puts it into his
> mailpaths by hand,
How, from the bounced mail? The failure notice has the illegal
characters stripped. I tried that some time ago, just before the first
time I wrote to this list to mention that UTF-8 and the global moderated
group relay system are incompatible.
> or he fixes the code for the algorithm (almost as
> easy),
This would suggest a vast overestimation of the skill sets carried by
people who typically operate news servers. The top question in
news.software.nntp these days seems to be "how do I find the INSTALL
file?" These people are going to find and modify perl scripts?
> or he tells the user to 'get lost' (but hopefully more politely).
Somehow, I suspect that the Internet community might frown upon a
standard which embodies the principle that it's okay to tell the users
of international newsgroups to get lost. We need to provide users with
a smooth migration path, not slap their faces.
The layered approach will deprive users of seeing a group's proper name
until software is upgraded, but at least the group will be available and
reading and posting will work.
> As for control message processing, all that should need to be done is to
> disable the check presently in the server to reject 'illegal' newsgroup
> names.
There's that need to immediately update software again, by the people
who can't find the INSTALL file.
> Again, the admin should be informed that a 'bad' newsgroup message
> had been received, so either he creates it by hand (and there is no
> suggestion that the scripts presently provided to do that will not work),
It's not just the scripts. The operator needs to have a way to type in
those names and see that they are correct. Operators are people, not
software. The human factors matter here too.
> or he decides not to allow the group on his server. As far as we can tell,
> that is what happened when the Danish group was created. Those who wanted
> it had no difficulty creating it, and those who didn't took a conscious
> decision not to.
It was all simply choice? None of the decisions not to carry had
anything to do with not knowing how to add the newsgroup? If the
newsgroup was moderated, how well would it be working?